AMA and Electric Motorcycles in AMA races

[Johnny Depp]

J Day does address electric bikes in its rule book. There is a Pee Wee electric class while certain other Pee Wee classes prohibit electric. There is also scheduled E-Moto races on specific Saturdays. For full sized bikes, under the heading "Staging Procedures", it states:
*** Racers with (ALL ELECTRIC) i.e (Stark, Alta) bikes on the starting line will have to have the THROTTLE HAND on top of their helmet during the (7-10) second lift of the green flag. Once the green flag is waved for the start of the race then the racer can reach for the throttle and go ***

Don't understand why you say "more rules and handicaps aren't necessary".

I don't see how to address AMA's prohibition of electric bikes without rules allowing specific electric bikes and specific electric bike procedures that make things fair and safe.

Have not received a response from AMA on my letter but will continue to pursue!

Most rules are unenforceable. Open class is common in off road any ways.

The AMA “safety” is a smokescreen for “money” for OEM’s.

 

[Beagle]

Nice XGames vid by Stark

 

[Beagle]

Overall disappointing results for Stark riders 1st round in France SX tour 2024.

Team leaders Bogle in SX1 and Irsurti in SX2 failed to qualify. Wade brought home some points with 11th in SX2. Some hope for the Stark boys comes from Zaragoza who got a great start for his rookie campaign in SX tour, qualified 4th, got 2nd in his semi then 5th in the finale. After leading 4 laps he ends up 3 seconds from the podium. Aranda and Soubeyras were flying above the rest but podium is reachable.

Not the sure what's happening with Bogle, he's usually on par with Zaragoza, might have an injury or something?

Jorge Zaragoza on Instagram: "¡Mi primera carrera de SX en Francia! 🔥 2 holeshot y medio, mucho aprendizaje, nervios y un quinto en la general. ¡MUY contento de empezar así! En dos semanas a por el @sx_tour Vamossss 💪🏼 Muchas gracias equipo @star

1,579 likes, 43 comments - jorgezaragoza99 on June 30, 2024: "¡Mi primera carrera de SX en Francia! 🔥 2 holeshot y medio, mucho aprendizaje, nervios y un quinto en la general. ¡MUY contento de empezar así! En dos semanas a por el @sx_tour Vamossss 💪🏼 Muchas gracias equipo @stark__future ⚡️...

www.instagram.com

Jorge Zaragoza on Instagram: "5º en mi primera carrera en el @sx_tour 🔥 Una noche increíble liderando muchas vueltas y muy cerca del podio! Contentísimo 💪🏼✊🏼 Gracias equipo @stark__future Estamos cerca ⚡️⚡️ @monsterenergy @sevenmx_ @rynopower @

1,817 likes, 38 comments - jorgezaragoza99 on July 14, 2024: "5º en mi primera carrera en el @sx_tour 🔥 Una noche increíble liderando muchas vueltas y muy cerca del podio! Contentísimo 💪🏼✊🏼 Gracias equipo @stark__future Estamos cerca ⚡️⚡️ @monsterenergy @sevenmx_ @rynopower @bihr.es...

www.instagram.com

 

[Beagle]

Bogle had "mechanical problems"

Justin Bogle on Instagram: "Had too many mechanical issues throughout the day to finish last weekend at round 1 of the SX Tour in France, but shit happens and the guys are working their asses off to get things sorted, I’m thankful for the crew I have

2,429 likes, 30 comments - chiefluc891 on July 17, 2024: "Had too many mechanical issues throughout the day to finish last weekend at round 1 of the SX Tour in France, but shit happens and the guys are working their asses off to get things sorted, I’m thankful for the crew I have around me...

www.instagram.com

 

[Beagle]

Eddie Karlsson won battle of vikings round 2 in 4h.

For the geeks, check out this "factory battery swap" at the 1h15min mark.
2 mechanics plus the rider: 1.5 min to drop the battery, 2 min to put the new battery and get ready to go, total time 3.5 min. Extra time for half a banana and putting some more oil.

 

[Theo]

For the geeks, check out this "factory battery swap" at the 1h15min mark.
2 mechanics plus the rider: 1.5 min to drop the battery, 2 min to put the new battery and get ready to go, total time 3.5 min. Extra time for half a banana and putting some more oil.

There is also a hole on the right side of the spoiler assembly to access the top battery shaft quicker.

 

[Duncan]

Getting back on the subject of AMA restrictions on electric bikes...I did get a call from Mike Burkeen at AMA. He explained that AMA does have a Steering Committee to address this. There are rules at americanmotorcyclist.com, racing, racing and resources, racing rulebook, competition rulebook page 41. Currently it allows Mini-E Jr and Sr. and allows further eligibility through event supplemental rules, specific to each event. Those allowed through supplemental rules are only allowed in open non-displacement classes. Mike did explain that AMA's primary concern is that electric bikes are too quiet thus a safety concern. I indicated that a noise-emitting device could be considered. Let's hope that AMA develops some fair, reasonable rules that allow electric bikes to compete.

 

[Johnny Depp]

Getting back on the subject of AMA restrictions on electric bikes...I did get a call from Mike Burkeen at AMA. He explained that AMA does have a Steering Committee to address this. There are rules at americanmotorcyclist.com, racing, racing and resources, racing rulebook, competition rulebook page 41. Currently it allows Mini-E Jr and Sr. and allows further eligibility through event supplemental rules, specific to each event. Those allowed through supplemental rules are only allowed in open non-displacement classes. Mike did explain that AMA's primary concern is that electric bikes are too quiet thus a safety concern. I indicated that a noise-emitting device could be considered. Let's hope that AMA develops some fair, reasonable rules that allow electric bikes to compete.

Burkeen has his finger in the dike.

 

[Beagle]

Getting back on the subject of AMA restrictions on electric bikes...I did get a call from Mike Burkeen at AMA. He explained that AMA does have a Steering Committee to address this. There are rules at americanmotorcyclist.com, racing, racing and resources, racing rulebook, competition rulebook page 41. Currently it allows Mini-E Jr and Sr. and allows further eligibility through event supplemental rules, specific to each event. Those allowed through supplemental rules are only allowed in open non-displacement classes. Mike did explain that AMA's primary concern is that electric bikes are too quiet thus a safety concern. I indicated that a noise-emitting device could be considered. Let's hope that AMA develops some fair, reasonable rules that allow electric bikes to compete.

I got pretty much the same vibe from him. He really is open to the discussion and AMA has already allowed supplemental rules making electrics legal to race in US Sprint Enduro, GNCC and Motoclimb Super Series. His son Matt Burkeen is a 2 strokes addict in love with the Varg, he has raced it in electric race at Daytona.
I am fairly confident the AMA is working to enable electrics to race in many more series for next year. Question is mainly about integrating them in existing classes or creating a new electric class (which would be lame with only a handful of riders all racing on the same bike).

I understand they have a genuine concern for safety, as in they want to make sure not to draw rules that would cause more accidents. My respectful opinion is that this talk of noise buzzer or whatever will soon be forgotten, the Varg is already competing against ICE in a dozen of countries so what's the big deal? It's different to compete against a quiet bike sure, but with many federations currently making it work, why couldn't the AMA?

Of course this is just about amateur racing, he does not oversee pro racing for the AMA.

 

[Beagle]

Well, one thing is for sure, Stark is never short of direct messages for the federations/organizers
We will see if this bears any fruit...

Here it is:

"Stark Future is committed to advancing the sport of motocross and supercross by pushing for the inclusion of the VARG in all AMA, Feld and MX Sports events. Stark Future would like to take the opportunity to thank AMA for using Big Hill Jam as a Case study for future regulations. We are pleased with the results, which demonstrated that all bikes can coexist on the track. The success of the Stark VARG at the Big Hill Jam 2024 is a testament to the fact that the VARG electric motocross bike is not just the future but the present. The bike’s performance in a real-world, high-stakes environment proves that electric and combustion bikes can coexist on the track, offering an amazing and safe experience for riders and fans alike.

One of the key concerns in integrating electric motorcycles into existing classes is safety. The Big Hill Jam 2024 has shown that electric bikes like the Stark VARG can safely compete alongside combustion engines without compromise. The advanced engineering of the Stark VARG ensures consistent performance, reliability, and safety, meeting and exceeding the rigorous standards of professional supercross."

STARK VARG WINS GOLD AT BIG HILL JAM - Australasian Dirt Bike Magazine

Stark Future's Jorge Zaragoza and Patrick Evans clinch gold on the Stark Varg at Big Hill Jam 2024 Supercross and Best Whip.

adbmag.com.au

 

[Johnny Depp]

Dave Prater with Feld said that SX is working on a “exhibition” class? TBD what that means.

 

[Beagle]

Dave Prater with Feld said that SX is working on a “exhibition” class? TBD what that means.

I can see how it could make sense for Feld. They made it clear they don't want to mix electrics and ICE as they want to cater to the existing OEM. But they've also acknowledged electrics are the future of the sport.

They could have "exhibition" electric races at limited rounds. Single brand, find 8 riders not under contract and here we go. Not enough to be a proper championship in itself but we would still see how they would fare on proper SX tracks. Put Matt Burkeen on it!

When the "B riders" ride at qualifying pace it should become obvious how ridiculous this idea is. With any luck Honda will soon release its bike and that will remove barriers to proper racing.

 

[Johnny Depp]

I can see how it could make sense for Feld. They made it clear they don't want to mix electrics and ICE as they want to cater to the existing OEM. But they've also acknowledged electrics are the future of the sport.

They could have "exhibition" electric races at limited rounds. Single brand, find 8 riders not under contract and here we go. Not enough to be a proper championship in itself but we would still see how they would fare on proper SX tracks. Put Matt Burkeen on it!

When the "B riders" ride at qualifying pace it should become obvious how ridiculous this idea is. With any luck Honda will soon release its bike and that will remove barriers to proper racing.

There are several brands that could compete with prototypes. There has never been a better reason for an unlimited open class, with R&D in its infancy. Nobody knows where the technology will take us, solid state batteries, hybrid etc.

 

[B. FRANK]

the ic.e. age is almost over! I hope electricity didn't jump too soon. what I mean is this has been done before. there was a time when cars ran on...gasoline, steam, diesel or electricity. gasoline won out because it made more power and refilled quicker. it was all around safer and the main thing was convenient, there were gas stations everywhere. fast forward 80 years to today and we have gasoline, diesel, hydrogen and electric by means of batteries or solar powered. right now gasoline will win again because of convenience, a thriving aftermarket and the fact that people understand i.c.e. engines and many know how to work on them. electricities biggest problem right now is china. china puts out cheap electric toys like hoverboards and razor scooters that catch fire and electrocute the bold but ignorant.this scares people away from real electric motorcycles and cars, and it's always there in the back of your mind. battery technology needs to improve to bring down size and weight while increasing power and range. then recharging stations need to be everywhere and lastly, battery swaps should be quick and affordable like propane tanks for grills. right now gas is still kicking electricities butt everywhere except closed course. maybe electricity knows better then to bitch slap gasoline at this point. what if everybody saw how good electricity is. what if formula e cars beat formula 1 cars. what if nothing but Starks ever made the podium and all of America went electric overnight. we couldn't handle it. where are you gonna charge, who's gonna fix it, will it catch fire in my garage and burn down my home? electricity is not ready to run against gasoline again, yet. eventually i.c.e. will be banned altogether and owned only by collectors and electricity has to be there to replace it. electricity cannot handle the negative press....not yet. in the mean time why does everything revolve around the Ama? things that don't keep up with the times are replaced. get out and race your electrics, win if you can, tell others about the joy of amperage. remember....if you build it, they will come.

 

[mike61]

Stark Varg attended Red Bull Tyne

 

[Johnny Depp]

Getting back on the subject of AMA restrictions on electric bikes...I did get a call from Mike Burkeen at AMA. He explained that AMA does have a Steering Committee to address this. There are rules at americanmotorcyclist.com, racing, racing and resources, racing rulebook, competition rulebook page 41. Currently it allows Mini-E Jr and Sr. and allows further eligibility through event supplemental rules, specific to each event. Those allowed through supplemental rules are only allowed in open non-displacement classes. Mike did explain that AMA's primary concern is that electric bikes are too quiet thus a safety concern. I indicated that a noise-emitting device could be considered. Let's hope that AMA develops some fair, reasonable rules that allow electric bikes to compete.

Are you AgileMike on Vital? A new post covers this subject, with Mike's responses. Re: Stark-My conversation with Mike Burkeen, AMA Deputy Director of Racing
First, I will say that I'm seeing progress, a post on e-bikes that hasn't turned into a complete shit show.
GuyB booted me a few years back during CV, so any ideas I post here, on TT and various FB sites have a way of showing up over there in the arena of ideas.

The idea that rules have to be forever is flawed. The AMA falling back on the BIG mistake in the 2t/4t classes, and not wanting it to happen again is BS. Those rules should have been amended long ago.

The idea that because no other motorsports are running gas and electric together is another BS excuse. They aren't MX/SX. Mixing gas and electric is already happening worldwide, more every day. Dirt bikes and drag racing is one of the few areas where Electrics are able to demonstrate their advantages.

On the subject of protecting the legacy gas manufacturer's investments in the sport, they made those decisions of their own free will, including Beta, Triumph and Ducati and Kove. Technology marches on, and nobody is guaranteed that their technology should be grandfathered in for perpetuity. Alta, Cannondale, Maico, Montesa, Bultaco, CZ and more didn't get special treatment.

Parity. This is a tough one, as in this sport it has long been accepted that different engine sizes are legitimate ways to make things fair. It's a flawed concept that IMO has held the sport back forever. By having so many choices, head to head competition is avoided and the competition is watered down. Shane Watts won a round of GNCC on every sized bike KTM made. It's the rider, not the bike, and separating classes by skill (lap times) is much more sensible. We see in the Vet classes the bike doesn't matter.

Safety. The noise issue is BS, gas bikes have the same problem. I'm OK with a quick fix of noise makers, but it's only fair that ALL bikes run them. (see how dumb that sounds?)

As much as I am totally opposed to more classes (there's already over 40 and it's killing the sport) in this case it's probably better than nothing to get the AMA started. Obviously the Open, Vet and Women's don't need to be separated.

The AMA is now reacting to market pressure from promoters and riders, as we knew they would. They aren't pro active in the least, this issue dates back to Alta's. It doesn't take years, and steering committee's to keep the sport moving forward. If the AMA doesn't react, they will be left behind as the sport moves on. Their value as a sanctioning body is already on thin ice for a variety of reasons. It would have been expected already, but a long range roll out is long overdue.

2025 1st year- separate classes
2026 2nd year - integrate with 450's and noise makers at the amateur level
2027 3rd year - integrate with an Open Unlimited Class in Pro racing (development of both gas and electric is needed)

Beagle, do me a favor and share some of my ideas over there? Let them know it's from Johnny Depp.

As much as I am totally opposed to more classes (there's already over 40 and it's killing the sport) in this case it's probably better than nothing to get the AMA started. Obviously the Open, Vet and Women's don't need to be separated.

 

[Matt]

An idea I had a while back would be caping classes based on stored energy limits. It could even the playing field and create unique strategy to racing. An example would be to cap stored energy at 10kWh. For electrics this would be a simple battery capacity thing and for gas bikes it would dictate how much gas your bike can bring to the starting line. How you use the energy is open to different strategies. I think electrics would have an advantage in this case, however it creates a level ceiling to which both technologies could push for.

 

[Philip]

Safety. The noise issue is BS, gas bikes have the same problem. I'm OK with a quick fix of noise makers, but it's only fair that ALL bikes run them. (see how dumb that sounds?)

During last year's 24 hours of Starvation Ridge race, I got t-boned by a girl on a 2-stroke. She snuck up on me from behind quietly but very quickly. I didn't hear her at all. I swerved right in front of her to avoid something on the road, which is when she t-boned me. She stayed up, but I went down with a cracked left shrowd. She turned her head back with an "I am sorry" expression in her eyes. It's amazing how such small details are still noticeable in the heat of a race.

 

[Philip]

An idea I had a while back would be caping classes based on stored energy limits. It could even the playing field and create unique strategy to racing. An example would be to cap stored energy at 10kWh. For electrics this would be a simple battery capacity thing and for gas bikes it would dictate how much gas your bike can bring to the starting line. How you use the energy is open to different strategies. I think electrics would have an advantage in this case, however it creates a level ceiling to which both technologies could push for.

Electric bikes use their energy several times more efficiently. Gas bikes will start this type of race all with 0.3 gallons of gas and retire after 3-4 laps. There will be some who will endo on jumps. It probably won't be very popular.

 

[Matt]

Electric bikes use their energy several times more efficiently. Gas bikes will start this type of race all with 0.3 gallons of gas and retire after 3-4 laps. There will be some who will endo on jumps. It probably won't be very popular.

Could be usable energy assuming max thermodynamic efficiency of gas combustion or an established and more reasonable efficiency value. There are a lot of details that could get worked through but the point would be to limit on energy instead of power. Let the teams figure out how they want to distribute the energy.