SOP is "Start of production"... we can see that the top bikes will get released before the below ones... i count 8 bikes, good things coming!
Stark Future next models
- Thread starter Beagle
- Start date
I see 8 bikes but 9 lines and definitely 7 lines not already in production, presumably SM, Älg, Lo, Gimli, Freeride, ATV... +1?
More info in this Anton Wass interview
/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/octane/36NQGVLLOFGY7JNRTWNOGGSTIU.jpg)
www.cycleworld.com
Road bikes should be launched in a couple of years
Target performance is 300 km range and "10 min charge" (not that unrealistic as detailed on previous page, there are already commercial cells chargeable at 5 C, translating to 13 min to full charge).
I'm loving his answer about solid state batteries, it starts like this "I think solid-state has become a marketing word. It will take a very long time before we really see some fully solid-state batteries, if ever.[...]"
Fully agree with this one about OEMs, explaining why it's so hard for legacy OEMs to catch up to EV market leaders
"I think that many of them are hoping that electric is not the future. Some of them think it could be the future, but they don’t know when. And many of these companies have not been innovative in maybe 40 years.[...]"
Stark Future’s CEO Anton Wass on How Electric Can Beat ICE
Stark Future CEO Anton Wass reveals the company’s intention to enter the streetbike market. Will it see the same success as it has had off-road?
www.cycleworld.com
Road bikes should be launched in a couple of years
Target performance is 300 km range and "10 min charge" (not that unrealistic as detailed on previous page, there are already commercial cells chargeable at 5 C, translating to 13 min to full charge).
I'm loving his answer about solid state batteries, it starts like this "I think solid-state has become a marketing word. It will take a very long time before we really see some fully solid-state batteries, if ever.[...]"
Fully agree with this one about OEMs, explaining why it's so hard for legacy OEMs to catch up to EV market leaders
"I think that many of them are hoping that electric is not the future. Some of them think it could be the future, but they don’t know when. And many of these companies have not been innovative in maybe 40 years.[...]"
“If I tried to sell you an electric bike that was twice the price, half the power, and 50% higher weight, with less range [than a combustion-engined equivalent], would you buy it? No. If I sold you a bike that had more power, the same range, less weight, and charged as fast as you can fill a fuel tank, would you consider buying that? That’s the answer to your question. I don’t think it’s about people wanting electric—they want a better product.”
I think Anton has gone a bit too far here. It takes a maximum of 1 minute to fill a gas tank. I don't think you can charge a battery in 1 minute, and even if you can, it's not healthy for the battery; it will degrade very quickly.
Overall the interview was very interesting, this part in particular: "We will see a massive increase in energy density in the next few years, but it doesn’t have to come from solid-state. I think it will come from simply improved chemistry and composition of the cells.”
happyinmotion
Well-known member
- Likes
- 188
- Location
- New Zealand
CATL have announced their next generation of Shenxing cells will do 12C, so that's five minutes.
BYD are claiming 10C for their next generation cells.
Even if those claims are bold, it's pretty clear that charging rates are improving very rapidly. A five minute charge in a couple of years is looking pretty feasible. Given the time it takes to buy snacks and go for a piss, I think most people will be very happy with five minutes. I don't think one minute is really that much of an advantage over five.
That does mean you need to have a 100 kW charger handy. So that's not going to be off a generator. Hell, the power supply to my whole house is only 45 kVA and that's a pretty fat pipe for a residence.
BYD are claiming 10C for their next generation cells.
Even if those claims are bold, it's pretty clear that charging rates are improving very rapidly. A five minute charge in a couple of years is looking pretty feasible. Given the time it takes to buy snacks and go for a piss, I think most people will be very happy with five minutes. I don't think one minute is really that much of an advantage over five.
That does mean you need to have a 100 kW charger handy. So that's not going to be off a generator. Hell, the power supply to my whole house is only 45 kVA and that's a pretty fat pipe for a residence.
Ultra fast charge is already a reality for cars, some can charge at 330 kW, that is 0-80% under 15 min for huge battery. Now if you think motorcycle battery (15 kWh instead of 90 kWh), with these cells that would only take a couple of minutes to go from 0 to 80%. Such cells aren't used for motorcycles at the moment but they already exist.
The motorcycle industry will not even need to lobby for fast charging infrastructure, they'll just piggyback on infrastructure pushed for cars in Europe and elsewhere. With 6 to 10 times smaller batteries (compared to cars), the charging times for bikes will be amazing!
Ultra fast charge removes the need for huge batteries, allowing to keep motorcycles relatively light. Maximum capacity would probably be about 20 kWh, Zero motorcycles claim 288 km "city range" and 172 km "highway commuting range" with its 17 kWh pack.
Fast charge is not intended for residential use, for motorcycles, charging at night will still be more than enough (standard European household outlet gives 3.8 kW, enough to completely charge 20 kWh battery under 6 h). Indeed with 45 kVA you have a lot of power, here the standard for residential is 6 KVA.
Erwin P
Well-known member
- Likes
- 290
- Location
- Netherlands
4 piston brake caliper i see there. I don't think they need rubber inserts in the footpegs. They are to absorb vibrantions, wich arn't there to begin with.
My Husqvarna SM 610 had those inserts and I think they were useful to protect the soles of shoes, too. The Varg footpegs have teeth that look especially sharp and while I like the grip they give in a motocross track with boots, I suspect they would ruin shoes of people who use the SM on public roads without boots.
Erwin P
Well-known member
- Likes
- 290
- Location
- Netherlands
I just saw a EX yesterday (from Germany) and it didn't have to pointy footpegs (points were flattend). I think because that won't be street legal.
At 4:38 in the video you can see some info on the board... i do some screenshot, the penultimate model is the freeride and you can see that the ALG will be the next model to get released and then the LO
First model is MX SOP May 2023, second model it says EX SOP December 2024 and then de SM SOP but doesnt says any date
At 5:45 Anton wass points the board with his hand revealing the position of the models, the 4th from below is a "superlight adventure" 3th from below "superlight streetbike" and then he said "freeride" model... and the last one i think is the ATV
When the worker move his head you can see a bit of the back of the freeride model
First model is MX SOP May 2023, second model it says EX SOP December 2024 and then de SM SOP but doesnt says any date
At 5:45 Anton wass points the board with his hand revealing the position of the models, the 4th from below is a "superlight adventure" 3th from below "superlight streetbike" and then he said "freeride" model... and the last one i think is the ATV
When the worker move his head you can see a bit of the back of the freeride model
Chaconne
Well-known member
- Likes
- 243
- Location
- Massachusetts
I think the quote on solid state applies to American and European companies. The Chinese will lead the charge SS and their R&D and huge market will drive it. Just environmental elements alone militate against wet tech not to mention all the other disadvantages in my view at least.More info in this Anton Wass interview
Stark Future’s CEO Anton Wass on How Electric Can Beat ICE
Stark Future CEO Anton Wass reveals the company’s intention to enter the streetbike market. Will it see the same success as it has had off-road?
Road bikes should be launched in a couple of years
Target performance is 300 km range and "10 min charge" (not that unrealistic as detailed on previous page, there are already commercial cells chargeable at 5 C, translating to 13 min to full charge).
I'm loving his answer about solid state batteries, it starts like this "I think solid-state has become a marketing word. It will take a very long time before we really see some fully solid-state batteries, if ever.[...]"
Fully agree with this one about OEMs, explaining why it's so hard for legacy OEMs to catch up to EV market leaders
"I think that many of them are hoping that electric is not the future. Some of them think it could be the future, but they don’t know when. And many of these companies have not been innovative in maybe 40 years.[...]"
OEMs --primarily the Japanese-- who rely on the American market just don't see the volume for EVs in the US and they will not be able to compete with the Chinese (or India in the future) in Asia or developing markets. The US has become EV unfriendly and has been motorcycle unfriendly since the 80s --you see this clearly, for example, in the decline of Harley and aging out of the motorcycle buyers generally.
Europe is the perfect place for EV motorcycles and their development (MC culture EV adoption). But long term China, India, and the developing world is where the growth will be and for that kind of growth I think better, safer, cheaper, and more efficient battery tech will go to the winner. And I think near term China and Chinese companies may deliver this sooner than expected.
My EX is my "daily". No problems with the pegs in any foot wear.
Thinking about the Älg adventure bike, Stark wants more power, less weight and no more than 10% price premium than the competition in the 800cc range.
Now for the sake of the discussion, let's assume they pitch the Älg against a reference like the Yamaha Ténéré 700, we're looking at 73 hp, 208 kg (459 lbs) and 11k€. Targets for the Älg would then be 80-100 hp, maybe 180-190 kg and about to 12-14 k€ if you take the fancy 13 k€ Ténéré world raid edition at into consideration.
Power should be no problem given they already have 80 hp motor so they could stick with it or mod it a bit for a few extra ponies.
Weight, well they would have about 60-70 kg margin compared to the Varg, of which maybe 30-35 kg might be needed to double the battery pack (say about 15 kWh). So they would still have another 30-40 kg in hand for a beefier frame, cooling system and so on, that seems possible.
Now about the price, seems far trickier to me. They would need some magic to double the battery pack and stay around the same price as the Varg... Of course, economies of scale, high volumes and so on but still, that seems pretty tough to achieve. As a reference point, anything by Zero motorcycles (not perfect comparison but maybe closest we have) close to an adventure bike costs between 18 and 24 k€. Yeah, I know they don't sell tens of thousands of those but that's the competition that exists today, it's expensive and they aren't too many customers for those.
I believe there would be customers if they could indeed deliver a 100 hp, 180 kg, 15 kWh, 14 k€ adventure bike.
Now for the sake of the discussion, let's assume they pitch the Älg against a reference like the Yamaha Ténéré 700, we're looking at 73 hp, 208 kg (459 lbs) and 11k€. Targets for the Älg would then be 80-100 hp, maybe 180-190 kg and about to 12-14 k€ if you take the fancy 13 k€ Ténéré world raid edition at into consideration.
Power should be no problem given they already have 80 hp motor so they could stick with it or mod it a bit for a few extra ponies.
Weight, well they would have about 60-70 kg margin compared to the Varg, of which maybe 30-35 kg might be needed to double the battery pack (say about 15 kWh). So they would still have another 30-40 kg in hand for a beefier frame, cooling system and so on, that seems possible.
Now about the price, seems far trickier to me. They would need some magic to double the battery pack and stay around the same price as the Varg... Of course, economies of scale, high volumes and so on but still, that seems pretty tough to achieve. As a reference point, anything by Zero motorcycles (not perfect comparison but maybe closest we have) close to an adventure bike costs between 18 and 24 k€. Yeah, I know they don't sell tens of thousands of those but that's the competition that exists today, it's expensive and they aren't too many customers for those.
I believe there would be customers if they could indeed deliver a 100 hp, 180 kg, 15 kWh, 14 k€ adventure bike.
i think that if Anton said they dont want to increase more than a 10% of the competition price they simply wont, so your idea of 100 hp, 180 kg, 15 kWh, 14 k€ seems pretty possible, maybe the weight is going to be closer to 200 but thats not bad
They could mount 2 parallel batteries like Royal Enfiled or 1 bigger battery pack with double cells
Something that's been worrying me a lot since I've had my Varg for several months now is that the range really isn't that great if you're going fast, which is what many people want to do with this type of bike, especially road sports bikes and the oncoming SM model. The battery really drains very quickly, literally lasting 20 or 30 minutes on the road. Technology needs to advance because I know a lot of people who go on rides with their friends and have moments where they get motivated and do a fast section, maybe lasting 10 minutes, and in those 10 minutes you can use half the battery. They continue the route and you have to go home to charge the bike or to a public charging station. But if you're on a mountain road, you can't and you're stuck. They wont be follow you to a charging station and wait for you.
I don't know how they're going to address this problem, because even if they mount two batteries, that puts you at 40 minutes or an hour max, still not enough to compete with a Teneree.
Erwin P
Well-known member
- Likes
- 290
- Location
- Netherlands
Now you're talking the cheap baseline while a Stark Varg (wich you use as a baseline for price) has a way higher speced suspension etc. So either they can go with much lower specs OR compare to higher specs/priced bikes like the 890R and Desert X wich are in the 18K range.
That should add plenty budget for a double or almost triple battery setup.
The Varg is a hooligan bike wich is used for short adrenaline trips. ADV bikes have a much more modest usecase. I suspect around 20kW should be adequate.
That should add plenty budget for a double or almost triple battery setup.
The Varg is a hooligan bike wich is used for short adrenaline trips. ADV bikes have a much more modest usecase. I suspect around 20kW should be adequate.
"The Varg is a hooligan bike wich is used for short adrenaline trips."
Yes, but that helps us get an idea of the current state of the technology in terms of capacity/consumption/power.
With 7.2kW and 80hp, we're getting an average of about 25 minutes of intensive use out of the bike. Even with triple the battery, you won't get the range of a Teneree. It's sad, but it's a reality. I support the electric world and I love it, but I feel it's still not up to par in terms of range. Of course, if you go slowly and very calmly the entire journey, you'll gain a lot more mileage, but I think people don't always want to go slowly, nor always fast, but that's the point...
Erwin P
Well-known member
- Likes
- 290
- Location
- Netherlands
Take a look at the Energica Experia for reverence. That has much longer range than 3x the Varg with just 3x the battery. It's clise to say a Tenere in range, i would say 2/3 of range.
That has gearing set for higher speeds etc etc.
That has gearing set for higher speeds etc etc.
Good points about specs and all this. Maybe there's more room price-wise but he did mention 800cc midsize adventure bike which in my mind excludes the Desert X and 890.
Anyway it's all guess work, doesn't mean much. If you were to take Triumph Tiger, pick the 800 or 900 changes a lot (800 is 12 k€, 115 hp, 214 kg while 900 is 16k€, 108 hp, 219 kg, that's 4 k€ difference right there) then Stark would need at least 120 hp.
To me midsize says more 11-12 k€ than 16 k€ but for sure I don't know their targets nor the bike(s) they use as a benchmark. In my mind Ténéré is the historical reference and probably one of the bestselling bikes in the category that's just the first thing I thought.
Man, this teaser vid got me interested
