First Customer Bikes are shipping!

[Number Six]

A few thoughts come to mind as I ponder what my '17 KTM 250xcw would feel like with a 5.3 gallon gas tank filled to the brim ...

There was a fellow, some will recognize the name ; Colin Chapman. Chapman was the madcap leader, Inventor & captian of Lotus formula one, winner of seven world championships & considered the father of modern F1 racing due to his constant obsession with performance via innovation & light weight.
Chapman had a well known phrase that applies particularly well to the off road motorbikes we all like so much ; "adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere".
.

 

[Philip]

For most of us non-pro MX folks, an extra range that comes at the cost of extra weight is not a welcomed bonus.

I would rather have a bike that weighs 25 lbs less (235 lbs or 107 kg) and has a 4.5 kWh hot-swappable battery.

Why? Because I can win on such a bike more easily and more often.

With 1-2 spare batteries in the truck, I can race or practice all day long on a very light bike.

If the Alta's battery was large enough for my local 20-minute races, then a larger and heavier battery will be of no value to me.

And if my Alta's battery expired after 25-30 minutes of a 1-hour endurance race, then a 50% larger battery would still expire after 35-45 minutes, which is not enough for a full race. I would have to keep bringing two bikes to the track.

 

[Mark911]

That's somewhat positive news. If your estimate of the Alta "gas tank" was 0.75 gallons, then your Stark's estimate is 1.5x times bigger. That is more optimistic than 1.33x @fsfs estimated. Good news for weekend trail riders.

I assumed all the improved "efficiencies" that Stark claims. Again, we'll soon know.

 

[Ethos]

Longer term, it is worth pointing out that most of an electric bikes weight is in the battery. Over time, this will go down considerably as energy densities improve.
Crossing a milestone of matching gas bikes in energy density is a day I didn't think we would see in my lifetime. I'm glad we are as close as we are.

This isn't a solution for varg buyers in the near term.

 

[enjoythesilenc]

I don't know anything about an MXR or its range. Never ridden one. I'm a Stark Varg customer. Any reason why you wouldn't do the video I suggested? If not, then oh well.

Don't let the dream die. The stark will be a great singletrack bike. You can adapt to the range limitation if you truly love winding terrain. It's going to perform better than whatever you're riding now in 95% of situations.

it's not going to get 50 miles with your buddies, though. If that is your sole requirement, sell the stark after taking delivery and testing it for yourself.

 

[Brillie35]

It sure would mean a lot to some of us trail riders to get more information on how much range you can get on single track. I'd like to see a single track riding video where I can see the terrain being ridden and how fast it's being ridden. Then I'd like the rider to stop every half hour or hour and show us how much battery is left and how many miles ridden. Then keep riding until the battery is drained or nearly drained. Really, why has a video like this not been done already? @fsfs if you are going to hang your hat on range then we need to see real world video examples of that. Soon would be good.

I agree with others that weight is super important and 260 lbs has me very concerned. But I also need to know more about range. If I can't go do 50 miles of technical single track with my buddies who are riding ICE bikes, then I'll have to give up my deposit and let this electric dream go.

If you want to do 50 miles, make sure you start on top of a hill and finish on the bottom.
One drawback of electric bikes is you can not put it in neutral.
They have a lot more resistance while pushing then gas bikes.
Maybe ad a chain splitter in your toolkit.
And something for your buddy's to tow you.
You won't regret it.

 

[Oded]

If you want to do 50 miles, make sure you start on top of a hill and finish on the bottom.
One drawback of electric bikes is you can not put it in neutral.
They have a lot more resistance while pushing then gas bikes.
Maybe ad a chain splitter in your toolkit.
And something for your buddy's to tow you.
You won't regret it.

You can customize the Stark (and also the Alta with the SM version maps) to freewheel when you let go the throttle.

 

[Brillie35]

You can customize the Stark (and also the Alta with the SM version maps) to freewheel when you let go the throttle.

When it is completely empty and you have to push, the motor resistance is very noticeable.

 

[Philip]

t's not going to get 50 miles with your buddies, though. If that is your sole requirement, sell the stark after taking delivery and testing it for yourself.

It probably will go over 50 miles for most trail riding, other than sand and mud. Many of us have gone over 40 miles on the Alta, and the Stark Varg has at least a 1.33x bigger battery capacity.

 

[F451]

It probably will go over 50 miles for most trail riding, other than sand and mud. Many of us have gone over 40 miles on the Alta, and the Stark Varg has at least a 1.33x bigger battery capacity.

Who has gone over 40 miles trail riding on their Alta? I can't recall a single instance being mentioned. Of course I could have easily missed a post about it.

My MXR I milked, and I mean, absolutely milked 40 miles out of it twice when testing it. Map 1-2, 20-40 mph, pavement, barely cracking the throttle.

The last few miles I had no bars showing SOC and was waiting for it to quit completely.

It wasn't any fun and I would never ride like that normally.

There is no way I could get 40 miles trail riding my MXR, and I'm not a very aggressive trail rider. I figure 20 - 25 is a safe trail riding range, maybe 30 if I want to push it.

For the Varg, I'm figuring 40 miles of normal pace trail riding maybe. If it could do 50, that would be a nice gain over the Alta.

Hopefully Tucker at https://www.youtube.com/@ElectricCycleRider will do a complete review of the Varg once they are in customer/dealer hands. He's my go to guy for e-dirt bike reviews. Talented and knowledgeable about both ICE and e-dirt bikes, does honest reviews, seems like a straight shooter. He recently did a great range test on the Sur Ron Ultra Bee for mx track, trail, and max range (flat two track).

 

[F451]

Re the newly revealed weight of the Stark Varg, I'm feeling like I'm on the wrong end of a bait and switch if I can't get my deposit back.

And before you all go "fine print, you signed up..." on me, consider the following. And consider doing what is right, not what is legally allowed, or what you can legally get away with.

Bike was advertised with a weight of 110 kg/242 lbs.

Now updated to 118kg/260 lbs.

This is a huge difference. I was expecting the production bike to be at most 5 lbs or so over the advertised weight, not 18 lbs.

The 242 lb advertised weight combined with greater range vs the Alta is what got me excited about this bike, not the 80 hp motor. For me, the Alta has more then enough power, but is way too heavy, and does not have enough range.

Not once during the many, many promotional videos, interviews, social media posts was the potential weight gain mentioned. Not even hinted at.

Anton never mentioned it, Josh Hill never mentioned it, Tortelli, all the press testers in Barcelona, not even Bryan here.

I guess that explains why the dealer promo bike that toured the USA did not have a battery, as you know the first dealer that got their hands on it would have weighed it and the cat would have been out of the bag months ago.

I've been a big supporter of Stark online, but between the repeated delivery delays, then learning dealers will be getting bikes before all the customers who put down deposits well before the dealers got their orders in, and now learning the bike is not even close to the advertised weight, I'm not too happy.

Is Stark really going to not refund customers who cancel their orders now?

Is that fair to keep those deposits when the product being delivered is not what was advertised?

And again, before jumping down my throat that its only $100, besides losing the cash, its the principal of the matter, the bike is not what has long been advertised. Since it is not, I think they should refund customers who cancel their orders.

Lastly, I hope they sell a ton of these and that customers love them, but if they don't offer deposit refunds, I'll never buy a bike from them and just sit on the sidelines waiting for one of the established OEM's to build a similar, or better, e-dirt bike (which is just a matter of time). And of course I will be enjoying riding my MXR and sub 200 lb Sur Ron Ultra Bee without any lingering bad taste in my mouth, Lol.

 

[rayivers]

Here's a suggestion to Stark; offer batteries in the standard 100S4P configuration (6.5kWh) and 100S3P (4.8kWh), which should be @ 7kg / 14.7 lbs lighter using P45B's. Imo this would also be an ideal time to make at least the new lighter battery easier to change out, potentially killing another problem (range/track/moto 2 anxiety) with the same stone. It seems to me all this could be done almost entirely using current OEM battery hardware/cells, with some hand labor & FW reprogramming for both the BMS's and production line.

 

[Mark911]

The 100S is a "no changer" due to the total voltage requirement of the system. So, you are right, the only option is to reduce the parallel group count. Going from 4 to 3 is a big hit, 25% (the problem with using such large cells as it reduces design flexibility). Could the remaining cells support the power requirements/promises? Maybe, but they'd be working 25% harder and that might have tipped the longevity scale in terms of charge/discharge cycles/etc. So, it might not have been range (although that's a great excuse) that prompted the increase in pack size.

I was told that JH#75 Redbull Straight Rhythm bike only used 4P to lose 33% weight, probably 18-20 lbs. Those remaining cells worked super hard, but for less than a minute a run and there was no concern for durability of those packs. However, I'll bet a 5P configuration (16%) would have worked for most us Vet MX guys. That would have been maybe 10 lbs. But again, it probably came down to cell life, not all out performance/weight reduction.

 

[rayivers]

Maybe a max-power limit could be imposed on the smaller battery (maybe 50hp or whatever) to keep cell life high? This would work great for me, I've never pushed the limits of my Alta in any way except range once (after starting off at 60%). With 100 less cells and no longer any requirement for the 80hp version, it seems a significant cost savings might be possible, which I would certainly not be upset about.

Thanks for the info and the Straight Rhythm mod, it would be cool to know exactly what was done to the Alta to make that happen. If one had a dead Alta pack it might be a great option to pull out cells and end up with a lighter/cooler-running (but smaller-capacity) functional pack as opposed to an expensive-ass paperweight.

 

[TCMB371]

Re the newly revealed weight of the Stark Varg, I'm feeling like I'm on the wrong end of a bait and switch if I can't get my deposit back.

And before you all go "fine print, you signed up..." on me, consider the following. And consider doing what is right, not what is legally allowed, or what you can legally get away with.

Bike was advertised with a weight of 110 kg/242 lbs.

Now updated to 118kg/260 lbs.

This is a huge difference. I was expecting the production bike to be at most 5 lbs or so over the advertised weight, not 18 lbs.

The 242 lb advertised weight combined with greater range vs the Alta is what got me excited about this bike, not the 80 hp motor. For me, the Alta has more then enough power, but is way too heavy, and does not have enough range.

Not once during the many, many promotional videos, interviews, social media posts was the potential weight gain mentioned. Not even hinted at.

Anton never mentioned it, Josh Hill never mentioned it, Tortelli, all the press testers in Barcelona, not even Bryan here.

I didnt comment on it in my video because it was not yet public knowledge. I hope you can understand that. What i did say in my video is how the bike felt out on the track.

After they publicly announced it, i posted this comment in this thread explaining my thoughts: First Customer Bikes are shipping!

I did notice the weight right away when i pulled the very first bike off the stand. I was expecting it to feel lighter than my MXR given the advertised 242 but it didnt. The Varg is a little more rear weight biased than the MXR but it felt very similar to how my MXR feels lifting it off the stand. On the track it felt very light and flickable, just like the MXR. The feeling we all love on our MXRs.

Keep in mind, the Varg is at 260lbs with coil spring KYB forks and a higher capacity battery. Alta MXR is 258lbs with a WP AER48 air fork. Those who put coil spring forks on their MXR are probably heavier than a Varg. The Varg is a massive improvement over the MXR from a performance standpoint even at the new weight spec.

Keep in mind this bike is purpose built for motocross but can be spec'd with parts that make it more offroad friendly (18" rear, kickstand, etc). I cant comment on how much range it will get in someone's particular single track riding scenario because i havent done that type of riding on the bike yet. As we MXR/EXR owners know range varies quite a bit. I Will definitely be making a single track video and do a full range test 100-0% after my bike arrives.

That all said, they told me the new weight spec before i paid in full and i still decided to buy the bike. I like what i rode in Barcelona.

 

[Number Six]

I didnt comment on it in my video because it was not yet public knowledge. I hope you can understand that. What i did say in my video is how the bike felt out on the track.

After they publicly announced it, i posted this comment in this thread explaining my thoughts: First Customer Bikes are shipping!

I did notice the weight right away when i pulled the very first bike off the stand. I was expecting it to feel lighter than my MXR given the advertised 242 but it didnt. The Varg is a little more rear weight biased than the MXR but it felt very similar to how my MXR feels lifting it off the stand. On the track it felt very light and flickable, just like the MXR. The feeling we all love on our MXRs.

Keep in mind, the Varg is at 260lbs with coil spring KYB forks and a higher capacity battery. Alta MXR is 258lbs with a WP AER48 air fork. Those who put coil spring forks on their MXR are probably heavier than a Varg. The Varg is a massive improvement over the MXR from a performance standpoint even at the new weight spec.

Keep in mind this bike is purpose built for motocross but can be spec'd with parts that make it more offroad friendly (18" rear, kickstand, etc). I cant comment on how much range it will get in someone's particular single track riding scenario because i havent done that type of riding on the bike yet. As we MXR/EXR owners know range varies quite a bit. I Will definitely be making a single track video and do a full range test 100-0% after my bike arrives.

That all said, they told me the new weight spec before i paid in full and i still decided to buy the bike. I like what i rode in Barcelona.

Bryan, please do try & ride some fairly tight & sorta difficult single track if possible & report, many would be very interested in your overall impressions.
Much of my own ( & others ? ) decision to pre-order a Varg was based on the purported gross weight of 242 lbs. That sort of weight is very much in line with a modern 250 or 300 two stroke with a couple of gallons of gas on board.
As I remember ; the percentage of pre-order customers that ordered bikes with 18" rear wheels was substantial, so the natural assumption for most of those would be for off road use.
It's understood that the lack of reciprocating mass is a substantial factor & all, but for us single track riders, especially those of us who live where mud accumulation can amount to 15 lbs during a day of riding, the thought of aiming a 275 pound or better bike down a steep, greasy hill that ends in a rocky creek bed is, uh ... well you get the idea.

.

 

[Philip]

The two times when I notice the weight of my Alta are: 1) When I lift it onto a bike stand, and 2) When I have to pull on the handlebars to loft the front wheel over some obstacle.

I do not use the bike stand very often. I tend to use the rear wheel triangle at the track. This solves the first problem. The Varg will hopefully have a larger ground clearance, so you won't have to lift it as high. But its rear end is heavier. I might buy the folding kickstand and use it at the MX track. Screw the haters.

The more rearward-biased weight distribution, more power, and a higher CG of the Varg will help with the second problem.

Although 260 lbs is much different from the promised 242 lbs (which apparently was never going to happen), I think I will be pleased with a new shiny bike, a longer range, a better suspension, and the ability to fiddle with the power delivery. If I can tweak the power and traction control for my local sandy track (on which my Altas never worked well), that will be all that I need to keep me happy.

 

[Ethos]

This guy races electric against gas bikes on trails regularly.
In the past he has heavily moded bikes like the surron.
I respect his opinions.

Here he reviews two existing electric bikes that are heavier.

The Storm is 126kg
The Ultra is 85kg

He feels the weight difference is insignificant.
Both of those bikes are vastly inferior to the Stark in every category. Feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong.

I plan to grow more muscles. Fitness is a primary reason I ride anyways

 

[enjoythesilenc]

Were the press week extravaganza prototypes light or heavy SVs?

 

[Philip]

Were the press week extravaganza prototypes light or heavy SVs?

Heavy. It appears that light 110 kg bikes never existed. Manufacturers often announce weight targets that they think they might be able to meet somehow, if they try extra hard, or if a miracle happens. Then they come short of the target. Happens in the car industry too all the time.