NEW! STARK VARG EX is here!

[Chadx]

I’m talking about the new batteries in the enduro model. How does range increase 20% without the max hp also going up?

Max hp is based on the motor and programming of the controller. It does not automatically change just by increasing the battery size. A larger battery has the potential to allow a larger draw with less damage than a smaller battery. To increase available hp max, it would require different controller programming at a minimum and possibly a different controller and/or different motor. The 80hp version already pops up a warning. I thought that used to be about how hard it is on the bike, but just saw a vid that showed it saying it was just a lot of power (liability thing or just being cute?). But the faster you draw power, the harder it is on the battery. The 10% large battery (going from 6.5kWh to 7.2kWh), if nothing else, will be less impacted by the faster/larger draw on the battery. If not due to the cell construction, at least because the draw is a lower percentage of overall battery capacity. Same for charging rate.

All things being the same, a larger battery will give you more range, but max output (hp) will not change without reprogramming.

 

[FYR]

I’m talking about the new batteries in the enduro model. How does range increase 20% without the max hp also going up?

There's a lot of possible factors here, and programming is definitely one of them. But, in one example if battery cell count or capacity goes up (say 6.5 to 7.2 kwh) it doesn't necessarily mean that peak power goes up also. 1 single 3.4v cell will provide 3.4 max volts. 50 of these 3.4v cells tied together in parallel still only produce 3.4 volts - same power, but 50x the capacity (roughly). Think in terms of a quart of gasoline in an ICE car or 20 gallons in the same car. Same exact power, but more duration.

 

[Chadx]

It's kind of like having a camper battery bank that is 12v and 200ah. If you have a inverter that inverts 12v Direct Current (DC) and outputs 120v Alternating Current (AC) at a max of 1,500watts, adding more batteries to your battery bank doesn't change the max output of the inverter. It only effects how long you can draw that current until the battery is depleted (your range). Without changing to a different inverter, the max output is still 3,000 watts no matter if you expand the battery bank, from 200ah, to 600ah or 20,000ah.

 

[Theo]

But, in one example if battery cell count or capacity goes up (say 6.5 to 7.2 kwh) it doesn't necessarily mean that peak power goes up also. 1 single 3.4v cell will provide 3.4 max volts. 50 of these 3.4v cells tied together in parallel still only produce 3.4 volts - same power, but 50x the capacity (roughly). Think in terms of a quart of gasoline in an ICE car or 20 gallons in the same car. Same exact power, but more duration.

Same voltage, but not same power.
50 cells in parallel will produce 50 times more current than a single one, so in theory, given the same conditions like work duration and temperature, the maximum power that you can get from those cells should also be 50 times higher, since power depends on both voltage and current.

We don't know for sure what cells have been used and how they have been arranged, so we can't state whether the maximum amount of power that we can theorically get from the battery has increased.

 

[Chaconne]

There's a lot of possible factors here, and programming is definitely one of them. But, in one example if battery cell count or capacity goes up (say 6.5 to 7.2 kwh) it doesn't necessarily mean that peak power goes up also. 1 single 3.4v cell will provide 3.4 max volts. 50 of these 3.4v cells tied together in parallel still only produce 3.4 volts - same power, but 50x the capacity (roughly). Think in terms of a quart of gasoline in an ICE car or 20 gallons in the same car. Same exact power, but more duration.

Agreed.

Also HP=F(d)/t, where F=force, d=distance, t=time supporting your statement of multiple factors.

 

[AL_V]

I’m talking about the new batteries in the enduro model. How does range increase 20% without the max hp also going up?

Because the voltage stays the same, but the battery's storage capacity was increased.
Also, as stated, the HP is limited by software.

 

[Bpspecs]

So the only way to get an updated mx version is to buy an EX then take lights off and throw 19” rear on it? Any ideas when new updated MX Varg is introduce?

 

[Johnny Depp]

A lot of excuses, but going from 6.5 to 7.2 “could” relate to more HP easily. If 6.5 = 80hp, 7.2 should be low 90’s? I understand the software limits, just like the 60hp models, but the potential is there and I suspect that we will see it in V3 MX models.

 

[AL_V]

A lot of excuses, but going from 6.5 to 7.2 “could” relate to more HP easily. If 6.5 = 80hp, 7.2 should be low 90’s? I understand the software limits, just like the 60hp models, but the potential is there and I suspect that we will see it in V3 MX models.

Capacity does not equal more HP (although it can, based mostly on voltage).
You could also have an 80HP bike with 2Kwh of capacity.
But your range would of course be less than 1/3.
Hope that helps clarify?

 

[Johnny Depp]

Capacity does not equal more HP (although it can, based mostly on voltage).
You could also have an 80HP bike with 2Kwh of capacity.
But your range would of course be less than 1/3.
Hope that helps clarify?

1KW = 1.34 hp. There is a direct correlation.

 

[AL_V]

1KW = 1.34 hp. There is a direct correlation.

You are confusing KW =1,000 watts, with KWh Kilowatt hours 1KWh = can provide 1,000 watts for one hour.
By your formula 6.5kw *1.34 = 8.71 HP !!
Please see below:

the difference between kw and kwh - Google Search

 

[Chadx]

1KW = 1.34 hp. There is a direct correlation.

You are mixing up kW and kWh. kW and HP are both units of power. kWh is a unit of capacity (power over time).

• Kilowatts (kW): a measurement of power, or the rate at which energy is produced or consumed. It represents the amount of electricity needed to power a piece of equipment at any given time.
• Kilowatt-hours (kWh): a measurement of energy, or the total amount of electricity generated or consumed over time. It represents the amount of energy produced or consumed at a rate of one kilowatt over one hour.

So if the max output is 80hp, that is about 59.7kW. but has nothing to do with a battery holding 6.5 or 7.2 kWh of energy.

 

[Chadx]

So the only way to get an updated mx version is to buy an EX then take lights off and throw 19” rear on it? Any ideas when new updated MX Varg is introduce?

No rumors yet, but I expect it will happen sometime mid-2025.
Curious what parts of the EX you want for MX? The bigger battery? Or perhaps the new modes? Everything about the EX is focused on offroad riding; not MX. So besides stripping the lights and changing rear wheel and tire, one would have to go in and completely overhaul the suspension springs and valving for MX. And, the EX frame is made to be more compliant for enduro rather than the MX-specific flex. I submit you are not really getting anything substantial by selling an MX to buy an EX to then update the EX to MX specs. If you don't own a Varg, seems like same answer. Buy a current Varg MX for $11,000 and ride it rather than buying EX for $14,000 then throwing another $2k - $3 at the suspension and wheels. Or, wait for the Varg MX to get the same updates. Can't be too far out. I suspect they will update the MX sometime next summer as soon as current inventory is sold out and the part bins are empty of current Varg MX parts. Who knows. They may even announce it over the winter and those that ordered MX now for next year delivery may get the new MX at the price they lock in now.

 

[Bpspecs]

Hopefully mx gets wiring harness etc soon then mid summer

 

[Chadx]

Hopefully mx gets wiring harness etc soon then mid summer

Like I said, I suspect it will be whenever the current MX warehouse inventory depletes as well as the parts bins. They will keep a certain inventory of current parts to support the current Varg, but that will be minimal. If they have a warehouse full of current parts, they will keep building current MX version until those are depleted and probably keep the current discounted Varg price for those bikes. Then, when they start building the new MX with latest gen parts, it's price will jump up to nearly the cost of the EX. The spread between MX and Enduro typically have the MX slightly cheaper since they don't have lights and sidestand, but that spread won't be a lot. With the current 80hp EX price of $13,900USD without options, I suspect the new gen MX will be $13,600 - $13,700USD. (Example: Yamaha has a spread of $200 between the YZ450F MX bike and WR450F enduro bike. Same $200 spread between the 250cc versions of MX and Enduro).

Of note, Stark now adds $299 shipping whether you have it shipped to your house or the dealership. And that is even on the current discounted bikes from warehouses.

 

[Johnny Depp]

You are mixing up kW and kWh. kW and HP are both units of power. kWh is a unit of capacity (power over time).

• Kilowatts (kW): a measurement of power, or the rate at which energy is produced or consumed. It represents the amount of electricity needed to power a piece of equipment at any given time.
• Kilowatt-hours (kWh): a measurement of energy, or the total amount of electricity generated or consumed over time. It represents the amount of energy produced or consumed at a rate of one kilowatt over one hour.

So if the max output is 80hp, that is about 59.7kW. but has nothing to do with a battery holding 6.5 or 7.2 kWh of energy.

It’s a 10% increase in the amount of available power over an hour. I don’t see how peak hp couldn’t have also increased 10%?

 

[Theo]

It’s a 10% increase in the amount of available power over an hour. I don’t see how peak hp couldn’t have also increased 10%?

A certain amount of power applied over an hour is just a way of expressing an amount of energy but it doesn't mean that the equipment that delivers and uses that energy is able to do that so quickly.
If you have an amount of energy of 7.2 kwh, then you can produce, for example, 7.2 kw for an hour, since 7.2 kw • 1 h = 7.2 kwh. Or you can produce 14.4 kw for half an hour, because 14.4 kw • 0.5 h = 7.2 kwh. Or you can produce 720 kw, which is the peak power of an F1 car, for a duration of 1/100th of an hour, i. e. 36 seconds, because 720 kw • 1h/100 = 7.2 kwh.
This doesn't mean that the equipment used is necessarily capable of delivering that power, though.
One problem is that electrical power is given by voltage times current and the cells of the battery have a certain, limitedrange of voltages and can produce a limited amount of current, therefore they can't produce any amount of power we want. There are also other limitations, like the amount of power that a motor can produce and that the cables can transmit.

 

[AL_V]

It’s a 10% increase in the amount of available power over an hour. I don’t see how peak hp couldn’t have also increased 10%?

You are still confusing KW vs KWh.
That available power is NOT increased per hour, the number of hours is what is increased.
I hope you will try to understand this:

60HP car = 60/1.34= 44.76kw (edited to correct math)
The size of the gas tank is 6.5 gallons

If you increase the gas tank to 7.2 gallons, it does NOT increase the HP of the car, but it can go farther.

This is a simple way to understand the difference between KW and Kwh, they are different measurements.

The main difference between kWh and kW is in what they measure. To put it simply, a kilowatt is a measure of power and a kilowatt-hour is a measure of energy; power is the rate at which something uses energy, and energy is the capacity to do work.

I'm giving up after this...

 

[Beagle]

Thanks Theo and Al_V, good explanations (just Al you mistyped, 60 kW = 80 hp).

 

[AL_V]

Thanks Theo and Al_V, good explanations (just Al you mistyped, 60 kW = 80 hp).

Yes, you are correct