another Honda CR-e build?, nope its a Suzy!

[Jim Beagle]

here are three of my proposals to Amorge: Original V3, Empire State and Buffalo

I dont fully grasp how much space is taken up by the BMS and other wires, and I'm also not sure how "custom" can they really build packs, but I am hoping for at least 14P

 

[halg]

that amorge has those templates is great data. thanks for sharing. i just sent them a message to request them.

i like the idea of having more battery at the bottom for a low COG. this matters a little more in a bike that goes on rides and gets dumped and picked up routinely. probably less important for motocross uses. but, keeping everything inside the frame seems to provide more protection.

in another 5 or 10 years maybe we'll have much greater energy density and less worries about such things. but, i must say things have come a long way already. this stuff is still tricky now but nowhere near what it looks like from 5 years ago based on reading peoples builds back then.

more importantly, how do you know what widths are possible/appropriate? i.e. how wide is 2 rows vs 3 rows vs 4, etc.?

 

[Jim Beagle]

Hello halg
here is the file that Amorge sent me, when I scaled it up to 100%, I did notice that the dimensions in one direction were off just a millimeter or two from the other direction, but I think it really helps to look at a design and see how the impact of tweaking various custom angles of the box can affect cell count

I looked thru the various "standard" battery dimensions, and it seems that the width (side to side in the bike) for a two stack pack is between 155mm & 160mm. Several of their standard packs have with these dimensions. Amorge did confirm with my Original pack design would be 155mm. I have not yet received a width confirmation from them on my buffalo three stack pack, but I did see Don Cox had one built that was 9 inches wide

I really believe a pack between the frame rails is safer overall, but if I go with the wider side loaded pack, maybe I can build some box rails to offer a bit of protection......

 

[halg]

Hello halg
here is the file that Amorge sent me, when I scaled it up to 100%, I did notice that the dimensions in one direction were off just a millimeter or two from the other direction, but I think it really helps to look at a design and see how the impact of tweaking various custom angles of the box can affect cell count

I looked thru the various "standard" battery dimensions, and it seems that the width (side to side in the bike) for a two stack pack is between 155mm & 160mm. Several of their standard packs have with these dimensions. Amorge did confirm with my Original pack design would be 155mm. I have not yet received a width confirmation from them on my buffalo three stack pack, but I did see Don Cox had one built that was 9 inches wide

I really believe a pack between the frame rails is safer overall, but if I go with the wider side loaded pack, maybe I can build some box rails to offer a bit of protection......

View attachment 13149

Well, in my case i don't have a twin spar frame to fit it in so i guess we'll see what happens!

You guys have such nice clean shops. I sprayed half a can of kroil working out a rusted swingarm pivot bolt so there is powder all over the floor to soak it up where it leaked down. I ended up having to hit it with the torch but finally got the bolt out. I swear, no matter what I do, its the things I take for granted that take the most time.

 

[Jim Beagle]

I hear you! It took me three days to get one of my axle bolts out, beat it and soaked it in PB blaster and beat on it some more, then cursed, then heat it and beat it some more, jacked the threads all up, but didn't care!

 

[DonCox]

I haven't opened up the 2 newest batteries I got from Amorge, to see what direction what is in, But the one that went into the Honda or Yamaha with a little more space, was 6.25" across the bike. It was 8.25" front to back, and 12.5" high . The KTM battery was 9" x 9" x 10" high and the front and back angle in. Their drawing shows that the sides angle in too, but they don't. Both of these batteries are 20S12P

 

[Jim Beagle]

my Amorge journey continues....

so I sent the 'Buffalo v2" battery design to Amorge, Miranda comes back and says:
Hello, friend
We checked the size of your battery.
The 332MM position we drew only 323MM
According to the frame size of this battery, we calculated that there are 108 battery cells in total
In addition, if you need to make three layers, the size of the three layers is 235MM
In addition, this battery is a custom size, and the current size is not suitable for making a metal box.
In addition, you change the size of the battery to a rectangular shape, which is easier to make a metal box

I wasnt really surprised that they couldnt build a box with that many sides, and I was thinking maybe I could build my own, and good news she did confirm the width of three layer is 235mm and 108 cells. So I am thinking great 108 X 3 = 324 so they can do 20S16P. My sketch was 112+, so I am wondering if maybe I can pull in a couple of sides just a bit and give more clearance to the bike frame, and still have 108. So I asked how they came up with 108. She sends pic below with four cells crossed out, again I am thinking no worries. So I ask this question: What are the specifications for a 20S16P using Molicel P45B cells

and Miranda responds:
According to your requirement, 20S16P cannot be made.
The largest battery can be made to 20S15P
Because it is made by using three layers of batteries, then one layer has 7S, which is 16*7=112 battery cells, which has exceeded the battery size we calculated.
Making 20S15P is 105 cells, which is possible

Now I had 112+ cells in my layout, so I dont follow her 7S math above at all. and 20S15P should be 100 cells per layer not 105.

so here is where I am looking for experienced battery builders knowledge
can a three layer pack, share one set of 20S cells between the layers ?
100 + 110 + 110 = 320
or
107 + 107 + 106 = 320

Note: all of this has me seriously considering to just lower my expectations to 20S 15P, then shrink the size of a layer down to 100 cells,
and possibly simplify the pack shape, so they can build me a box........

appreciate the advice THANKS !!!

 

[Jim Beagle]

Oh my, I am such a knucklehead, I am mentally doing the battery math like it is 16S 20P or 15S 20P

 

[halg]

my Amorge journey continues....

so I sent the 'Buffalo v2" battery design to Amorge, Miranda comes back and says:
Hello, friend
We checked the size of your battery.
The 332MM position we drew only 323MM
According to the frame size of this battery, we calculated that there are 108 battery cells in total
In addition, if you need to make three layers, the size of the three layers is 235MM
In addition, this battery is a custom size, and the current size is not suitable for making a metal box.
In addition, you change the size of the battery to a rectangular shape, which is easier to make a metal box

I wasnt really surprised that they couldnt build a box with that many sides, and I was thinking maybe I could build my own, and good news she did confirm the width of three layer is 235mm and 108 cells. So I am thinking great 108 X 3 = 324 so they can do 20S16P. My sketch was 112+, so I am wondering if maybe I can pull in a couple of sides just a bit and give more clearance to the bike frame, and still have 108. So I asked how they came up with 108. She sends pic below with four cells crossed out, again I am thinking no worries. So I ask this question: What are the specifications for a 20S16P using Molicel P45B cells

and Miranda responds:
According to your requirement, 20S16P cannot be made.
The largest battery can be made to 20S15P
Because it is made by using three layers of batteries, then one layer has 7S, which is 16*7=112 battery cells, which has exceeded the battery size we calculated.
Making 20S15P is 105 cells, which is possible

Now I had 112+ cells in my layout, so I dont follow her 7S math above at all. and 20S15P should be 100 cells per layer not 105.

so here is where I am looking for experienced battery builders knowledge
can a three layer pack, share one set of 20S cells between the layers ?
100 + 110 + 110 = 320
or
107 + 107 + 106 = 320

Note: all of this has me seriously considering to just lower my expectations to 20S 15P, then shrink the size of a layer down to 100 cells,
and possibly simplify the pack shape, so they can build me a box........

appreciate the advice THANKS !!!

View attachment 13188

I'm having trouble following all that and it seems like you are as well. Maybe after some coffee I can process better.

I don't think I have enough battery experience to give you significant feedback. However, I can say that chatgpt has a battery designer bot (ChatGPT - Battery Designer) that is helpful when a newbie like me has stupid questions to ask. It is pretty impressive actually. Maybe it can help.

 

[Jim Beagle]

Halg. I was having a major case of battery dyslexia, but the clarity came to me while in the shower

I was mentally thinking my proposed packs were "sets" of 20, but they are actually "sets" of 15 or 16. It is the parallel cells that are a "set". Seems obvious to me now, not sure how I got it so backwards in my head

So each layer must be a multiple of 15 or a multiple of 16

JimB

 

[Jim Beagle]

…more amore’ for Amorge

For the last couple of weeks, I have been going back and forth with Miranda. I would get a bit frustrated with the language translations, but she has probably been equally frustrated with my lack of battery building knowledge and endless questions and multiple design tweaks…. With each of my proposed designs, I would build a box from heavy duty cardboard to test the fitment in my open frame area

Miranda and I discussed BMS location, because depending on the layout, I would lose a row or two of cell count spacing. (see the NY and the BUFFALO) I asked about an “external” BMS, and she came up with the idea to mount the BMS on the “side” of the pack, which increased my width from 230 to 255mm. yes, this is close to the overall width of my RMZ frame, but I was OK with that.

After the Buffalo cell layout, I thought I would see what were the options for having Amorge build a three layer steel box. I proposed this simple five sided shape, but Miranda said they would have to cut off the bottom triangle. With that in mind, I sent over the five sided Penta Wedge. She said they cannot build a box like that. At this point I realized a box built from Amorge just wouldn’t give me the total quantity of cells that I was hoping for.

So I played around with various cell locations and different shapes and angles, and sent over the MEGA design. This layout was 20S-17P with 119 cells per layer 7S+7S+6S 119+119+102=340 cells. This was really pushing the size envelope and I was worried that I might not be able to build a box around the pack and still squeeze it all into my frame. Miranda also needed to increase the size in a couple of areas.

So I pulled back one more time and went for a 20S-16P design 112+112+96=320 cells. I called this final proposal MABEL, which was my grandmothers name. With just a couple of minor tweaks, I was able to come to an alignment with Miranda on the pack size and shape, and still have some wiggle room to build my own battery box. HURRAY !

 

[halg]

Man that is an impressive battery. Congrats!

 

[Jim Beagle]

My original battery choice was going to be Molicel P45B, but after a bit of research I am leaning more towards the Samsung 50S.

SAMSUNG 50S: HOT GARBAGE OR MISUNDERSTOOD GEM?

According to people much smarter than me, the Samsung peak amps is very overstated. But I am willing to trade max power for more capacity, and with 16P and 320 cells, I really doubt I will be pushing/pulling this pack very hard

So here is my final quote from Amorge for the MABEL pack, but I would appreciate some advice before I pull the trigger

I have seen other Amorge quotes that indicate an 84v 10A Charger coupled with a 72V battery, my quote says 72v,
should I request a different Charger ?

I also have seen other quotes with the description for “open discharger”
should I request this option ?

Miranda also says: Regarding the output cable, we recommend that you use a dual QS10 connector so that you can fully utilize the continuous current you need. Because no connector can fully use the continuous current of 400A. The cable on my battery is 20CM, and the normal one we provide is a 25CM ring terminal. I will need to check these lengths,
any other advice here ?

thank you brothers

 

[DonCox]

From my experience with batteries and Amorge, 1.) Pay for Air shipment, that take long enough by Air. 2.) Open discharge puts less heat in the battery. It already builds heat, and the Discharge MosFets add more. The controller will shut it off at 60V or whatever you set it to be. Then keep an eye on the BMS for suspicious cell groups. The Samsung cells can put out more current than there 25A rating, but they get hotter then. 3.) Just have them confirm that it is an 84V peak charger. You are going to want a lot more charger than that for this size battery. 4.) I would choose the Molicel P45B cells. with this size pack on Single track riding, you should see 40 miles. We built a KTM with 20S16P Molicel P42A cells EM260 QS138 70H V3, and he is a good rider, he gets 40 miles. 5.) Get the 675A Peak BMS for the larger Charge side current, you are going to want at least 30-40A charging. Have them put 2 XT90 charge plugs, and stack 2 chargers on at the same time

 

[halg]

Miranda also says: Regarding the output cable, we recommend that you use a dual QS10 connector so that you can fully utilize the continuous current you need. Because no connector can fully use the continuous current of 400A. The cable on my battery is 20CM, and the normal one we provide is a 25CM ring terminal. I will need to check these lengths,
any other advice here ?

I'm confused by this question and I'm not sure how two discharge cables would work in an actual build. Does requesting open discharge mean this is a non question? How is @DonCox pulling 400 amps if she says there is no connector capable? Is this simply incorrect?

 

[Jim Beagle]

Halg
I could be wrong here, but I think Miranda Amorge is planning one QS10 for B+ and another for B-

BMS are capable of monitoring cells during both charge and dis-charge. From what I have read, many builders "bypass" this function during operation to reduce heat, and just set the Controller voltage parameters to protect the pack.

Others may offer additional information

 

[DonCox]

I'm confused by this question and I'm not sure how two discharge cables would work in an actual build. Does requesting open discharge mean this is a non question? How is @DonCox pulling 400 amps if she says there is no connector capable? Is this simply incorrect?

Just to answer your question, I typically do have 2 QS10 connectors, or on earlier bikes 2 Anderson connectors. For Performance bikes, bikes that guys are going to run hard, I split the battery to take advantage of 2 chargers, and share the output load, one for each 1/2 pack. But that also requires 2 BMS's inside the battery, and 2 sets of QS10 output cables. Allen at Amorge has recommended that I put 2 chargers onto one larger BMS for faster charging, but I would recommend going with 2 QS10 connectors for the higher current batteries, as your agent at Amorge stated. The 20S12P P45B celled battery can put out almost 500A, and your 20S16P can put out 650A. The KTM I built almost 3 years ago with the 20S16P battery is split in 2 for charging and for output with 2 Anderson connectors going to a Dual Battery switch where you can select one or the other or both batteries. I have used #6 wire from these batteries, and #4 wire off the dual battery switch to the controller. I use the same setup on my current KTM with a home built split battery. The bike KTM I recorded here on this forum ( 2019 KTM 450SXF Factory Edition Conversion to Electric Street Legal) does not have a split battery, nor 2 output connectors, because this is not for an aggressive rider, but I think I am going to in future builds, going to that model of 2 Charge cables and 2 discharge cables. Amorge did put #4 cables on the QS10 connector on the 2019 KTM I built, it was in the quote.

 

[DonCox]

Here are the specs on the QS10 connector, and we are at the upper spec of the connector, of 170A continuous, and 500A Max Current

 

[DonCox]

Halg
I could be wrong here, but I think Miranda Amorge is planning one QS10 for B+ and another for B-

BMS are capable of monitoring cells during both charge and dis-charge. From what I have read, many builders "bypass" this function during operation to reduce heat, and just set the Controller voltage parameters to protect the pack.

Others may offer additional information

I wouldn't split the connectors that way. There is an antispark resistor in the connector, that does help. There is also a label on the connector for + an- . I would wire them correctly, but just have 2. Your second statement is correct, I set my controller to go to Limp mode ( Votol Soft Undervoltage) at 65V and off at 59V for a 72V nominal system.

 

[halg]

Just to answer your question, I typically do have 2 QS10 connectors, or on earlier bikes 2 Anderson connectors. For Performance bikes, bikes that guys are going to run hard, I split the battery to take advantage of 2 chargers, and share the output load, one for each 1/2 pack. But that also requires 2 BMS's inside the battery, and 2 sets of QS10 output cables. Allen at Amorge has recommended that I put 2 chargers onto one larger BMS for faster charging, but I would recommend going with 2 QS10 connectors for the higher current batteries, as your agent at Amorge stated. The 20S12P P45B celled battery can put out almost 500A, and your 20S16P can put out 650A. The KTM I built almost 3 years ago with the 20S16P battery is split in 2 for charging and for output with 2 Anderson connectors going to a Dual Battery switch where you can select one or the other or both batteries. I have used #6 wire from these batteries, and #4 wire off the dual battery switch to the controller. I use the same setup on my current KTM with a home built split battery. The bike KTM I recorded here on this forum ( 2019 KTM 450SXF Factory Edition Conversion to Electric Street Legal) does not have a split battery, nor 2 output connectors, because this is not for an aggressive rider, but I think I am going to in future builds, going to that model of 2 Charge cables and 2 discharge cables. Amorge did put #4 cables on the QS10 connector on the 2019 KTM I built, it was in the quote.

Thanks so much for this information. After some measurements this weekend it looks like I am going to be able to fit ~300 cells (320 if I am lucky) in this frame. I'll be posting more in a follow up thread. But, regardless, this is entering territory where, based on the information provided here, I may reach the threshold of needing to split charging & discharging. Much to process that I'm unable to do right now but thanks again for sharing.

On a side note I spent 4 hours with my 3 nephews (4th, 6th & 8th grade) at the track today. One on a Mototec e bike, another on a tuttio soleil 01 and the oldest on a crf125f. Lots of little kids track riding and some light trail riding. The Mototec battery held up better than expected. But, they are just getting started and more putting around than pushing it. Good stuff.