another Honda CR-e build?, nope its a Suzy!

[Jim Beagle]

here are three of my proposals to Amorge: Original V3, Empire State and Buffalo

I dont fully grasp how much space is taken up by the BMS and other wires, and I'm also not sure how "custom" can they really build packs, but I am hoping for at least 14P

 

[halg]

that amorge has those templates is great data. thanks for sharing. i just sent them a message to request them.

i like the idea of having more battery at the bottom for a low COG. this matters a little more in a bike that goes on rides and gets dumped and picked up routinely. probably less important for motocross uses. but, keeping everything inside the frame seems to provide more protection.

in another 5 or 10 years maybe we'll have much greater energy density and less worries about such things. but, i must say things have come a long way already. this stuff is still tricky now but nowhere near what it looks like from 5 years ago based on reading peoples builds back then.

more importantly, how do you know what widths are possible/appropriate? i.e. how wide is 2 rows vs 3 rows vs 4, etc.?

 

[Jim Beagle]

Hello halg
here is the file that Amorge sent me, when I scaled it up to 100%, I did notice that the dimensions in one direction were off just a millimeter or two from the other direction, but I think it really helps to look at a design and see how the impact of tweaking various custom angles of the box can affect cell count

I looked thru the various "standard" battery dimensions, and it seems that the width (side to side in the bike) for a two stack pack is between 155mm & 160mm. Several of their standard packs have with these dimensions. Amorge did confirm with my Original pack design would be 155mm. I have not yet received a width confirmation from them on my buffalo three stack pack, but I did see Don Cox had one built that was 9 inches wide

I really believe a pack between the frame rails is safer overall, but if I go with the wider side loaded pack, maybe I can build some box rails to offer a bit of protection......

 

[halg]

Hello halg
here is the file that Amorge sent me, when I scaled it up to 100%, I did notice that the dimensions in one direction were off just a millimeter or two from the other direction, but I think it really helps to look at a design and see how the impact of tweaking various custom angles of the box can affect cell count

I looked thru the various "standard" battery dimensions, and it seems that the width (side to side in the bike) for a two stack pack is between 155mm & 160mm. Several of their standard packs have with these dimensions. Amorge did confirm with my Original pack design would be 155mm. I have not yet received a width confirmation from them on my buffalo three stack pack, but I did see Don Cox had one built that was 9 inches wide

I really believe a pack between the frame rails is safer overall, but if I go with the wider side loaded pack, maybe I can build some box rails to offer a bit of protection......

View attachment 13149

Well, in my case i don't have a twin spar frame to fit it in so i guess we'll see what happens!

You guys have such nice clean shops. I sprayed half a can of kroil working out a rusted swingarm pivot bolt so there is powder all over the floor to soak it up where it leaked down. I ended up having to hit it with the torch but finally got the bolt out. I swear, no matter what I do, its the things I take for granted that take the most time.

 

[Jim Beagle]

I hear you! It took me three days to get one of my axle bolts out, beat it and soaked it in PB blaster and beat on it some more, then cursed, then heat it and beat it some more, jacked the threads all up, but didn't care!

 

[DonCox]

I haven't opened up the 2 newest batteries I got from Amorge, to see what direction what is in, But the one that went into the Honda or Yamaha with a little more space, was 6.25" across the bike. It was 8.25" front to back, and 12.5" high . The KTM battery was 9" x 9" x 10" high and the front and back angle in. Their drawing shows that the sides angle in too, but they don't. Both of these batteries are 20S12P

 

[Jim Beagle]

my Amorge journey continues....

so I sent the 'Buffalo v2" battery design to Amorge, Miranda comes back and says:
Hello, friend
We checked the size of your battery.
The 332MM position we drew only 323MM
According to the frame size of this battery, we calculated that there are 108 battery cells in total
In addition, if you need to make three layers, the size of the three layers is 235MM
In addition, this battery is a custom size, and the current size is not suitable for making a metal box.
In addition, you change the size of the battery to a rectangular shape, which is easier to make a metal box

I wasnt really surprised that they couldnt build a box with that many sides, and I was thinking maybe I could build my own, and good news she did confirm the width of three layer is 235mm and 108 cells. So I am thinking great 108 X 3 = 324 so they can do 20S16P. My sketch was 112+, so I am wondering if maybe I can pull in a couple of sides just a bit and give more clearance to the bike frame, and still have 108. So I asked how they came up with 108. She sends pic below with four cells crossed out, again I am thinking no worries. So I ask this question: What are the specifications for a 20S16P using Molicel P45B cells

and Miranda responds:
According to your requirement, 20S16P cannot be made.
The largest battery can be made to 20S15P
Because it is made by using three layers of batteries, then one layer has 7S, which is 16*7=112 battery cells, which has exceeded the battery size we calculated.
Making 20S15P is 105 cells, which is possible

Now I had 112+ cells in my layout, so I dont follow her 7S math above at all. and 20S15P should be 100 cells per layer not 105.

so here is where I am looking for experienced battery builders knowledge
can a three layer pack, share one set of 20S cells between the layers ?
100 + 110 + 110 = 320
or
107 + 107 + 106 = 320

Note: all of this has me seriously considering to just lower my expectations to 20S 15P, then shrink the size of a layer down to 100 cells,
and possibly simplify the pack shape, so they can build me a box........

appreciate the advice THANKS !!!

 

[Jim Beagle]

Oh my, I am such a knucklehead, I am mentally doing the battery math like it is 16S 20P or 15S 20P

 

[halg]

my Amorge journey continues....

so I sent the 'Buffalo v2" battery design to Amorge, Miranda comes back and says:
Hello, friend
We checked the size of your battery.
The 332MM position we drew only 323MM
According to the frame size of this battery, we calculated that there are 108 battery cells in total
In addition, if you need to make three layers, the size of the three layers is 235MM
In addition, this battery is a custom size, and the current size is not suitable for making a metal box.
In addition, you change the size of the battery to a rectangular shape, which is easier to make a metal box

I wasnt really surprised that they couldnt build a box with that many sides, and I was thinking maybe I could build my own, and good news she did confirm the width of three layer is 235mm and 108 cells. So I am thinking great 108 X 3 = 324 so they can do 20S16P. My sketch was 112+, so I am wondering if maybe I can pull in a couple of sides just a bit and give more clearance to the bike frame, and still have 108. So I asked how they came up with 108. She sends pic below with four cells crossed out, again I am thinking no worries. So I ask this question: What are the specifications for a 20S16P using Molicel P45B cells

and Miranda responds:
According to your requirement, 20S16P cannot be made.
The largest battery can be made to 20S15P
Because it is made by using three layers of batteries, then one layer has 7S, which is 16*7=112 battery cells, which has exceeded the battery size we calculated.
Making 20S15P is 105 cells, which is possible

Now I had 112+ cells in my layout, so I dont follow her 7S math above at all. and 20S15P should be 100 cells per layer not 105.

so here is where I am looking for experienced battery builders knowledge
can a three layer pack, share one set of 20S cells between the layers ?
100 + 110 + 110 = 320
or
107 + 107 + 106 = 320

Note: all of this has me seriously considering to just lower my expectations to 20S 15P, then shrink the size of a layer down to 100 cells,
and possibly simplify the pack shape, so they can build me a box........

appreciate the advice THANKS !!!

View attachment 13188

I'm having trouble following all that and it seems like you are as well. Maybe after some coffee I can process better.

I don't think I have enough battery experience to give you significant feedback. However, I can say that chatgpt has a battery designer bot (ChatGPT - Battery Designer) that is helpful when a newbie like me has stupid questions to ask. It is pretty impressive actually. Maybe it can help.

 

[Jim Beagle]

Halg. I was having a major case of battery dyslexia, but the clarity came to me while in the shower

I was mentally thinking my proposed packs were "sets" of 20, but they are actually "sets" of 15 or 16. It is the parallel cells that are a "set". Seems obvious to me now, not sure how I got it so backwards in my head

So each layer must be a multiple of 15 or a multiple of 16

JimB