First Customer Bikes are shipping!

6.5 kW/h? The battery gains strength over time? :)

I'm tempted to just buy a battery for some reason.

It would be fair to put a gag order on people getting their bikes before you so customer #1 gets the first chance to announce the first arrival.
 
Just wanted to comment on the updated specs announced today.

- 260lbs (up from the originally advertised 242lbs).

- 6.5 kWh battery (up from 6.0 kWh capacity). Note that this is at a nominal 3.6v. Fully charged up to 4.2v per cell, the pack capacity is over 7kWh.

The bikes I rode in Spain had these specs.

The weight of the bike felt almost identical to my MXR on the stand, and if I'm being honest i was surprised by this because I had thought the bike was going to feel way lighter lifting the bike off the stand than my Alta overall (242 vs 258). My initial reaction the first time i took the bike off the stand was like ..... "hmmm, this feels like my Alta". That said, my comments in my video about the bike feeling very light and flickable out on the track were honest and accurate. Just like our Altas, electric has basically 0 engine inertia so there are really no forces fighting your turning input. That, coupled with instant torque makes the bike feel very light and flickable out on the track. In addition, the geometry of the Varg and the weight bias is more like a Honda where the steering feels quick and light. The bike seemed to lay into ruts effortlessly, sort of like the bike was assisting corner entry and roll through the corner. And overall, this made it feel a bit lighter riding on the track than my Alta MXR.

My battery range claims were using the 6.5 kWh packs. I know some of you were scratching your head about how the bike could last my 29 min moto (~80% effort) + 15 min playriding on 60% battery, and i had to bite my tongue quite a bit on that until this announcement, but hopefully now that will make more sense. When I mentioned in my video that I was excited about the design elements of the battery, this was one main part of that, but there are a few others as well. This battery pack truly is the best available on the market today.
 
Philip said:
Oh wow! Is the Stark Varg at 260 lbs now heavier than the Alta Redshift at 257 lbs?
Click to expand...
Number Six: "That kind of gross weight would likely be a deal breaker .. perhaps for a lot of folks."
Click to expand...

+1 - but one thing I've learned from the 'electric experience' is that re design choices, increasing range will win out over decreasing weight. I understand why, but it's still frustrating to me as an owner that would be quite happy with 4kWh, and frickin' dee-lighted with a lighter bike.

If Stark offers a lighter/smaller-capacity battery down the line, I'll definitely be getting one. I won't be buying another porker, that's for certain.
 
Yeah, I'm a lot less enthused @ 260 , thats for sure. 242 was a no-brainer.
My usage is technical single track, 260 is a lot to have to slow down & to maneuver constantly over uneven terrain.
Delivery isn't till August .. so I guess there may be some real world opinions regarding the bikes capability & 'feel' in conditions other than an MX track.
.
 
Although the Stark sounds like a beast, I don't see an advantage over the Alta for trail / Enduro / hard Enduro.

They weigh the same (which is critical for hard Enduro), Suspension is tuned for MX unlike the Redshift MX EX EXR which was soft and very suitable for hard terrain. Also, the Redshift uses sprockets from KTM, pegs from Yamaha, fender from Honda and so on. These replacement parts may be an issue with the Varg. They break easily on rocks and such.

The added horse power is not beneficial for Enduro. The Alta is overpowered as it is

So, trail riders may benefit from a half price used Alta. For MX riders, the Stark seems amazing.
 
Number Six said:
Yeah, I'm a lot less enthused @ 260 , thats for sure. 242 was a no-brainer.
My usage is technical single track, 260 is a lot to have to slow down & to maneuver constantly over uneven terrain.
Delivery isn't till August .. so I guess there may be some real world opinions regarding the bikes capability & 'feel' in conditions other than an MX track.
.
Click to expand...

For MX you don't really feel the weight because the lower rotational inertia more than makes up for the extra mass. For your use case the extra weight might be an issue. Then again it might not be -- because it is distributed a bit differently than with an ICE bike. I think it is not possible to be sure before you actually try it. Better to try it yourself than to rely on other's opinions (if possible in your case).

Regards,

Fran
 
fsfs said:
For MX you don't really feel the weight because the lower rotational inertia more than makes up for the extra mass. For your use case the extra weight might be an issue. Then again it might not be -- because it is distributed a bit differently than with an ICE bike. I think it is not possible to be sure before you actually try it. Better to try it yourself than to rely on other's opinions (if possible in your case).

Regards,

Fran
Click to expand...
Yeah sure, but .. it's 12K to try it !
Hoping that there are at least a few current 2 stroke single track riders receiving bikes shortly to give even a basic impression on how Varg compares for single track terrain.
What are the basics on the weight distribution differences ; Varg vs conventional IC machine ?
Thanks.
 
260 lbs!!! Probably closer to 265. I am so bummed.

And yes, you don't feel it once you get going, but you're still hauling 260+ lbs around when you need to stop, loading, unloading, moving around the garage, not to mention on single track.

Will have to take a Varg for a test ride before I commit next fall, but was really excited about the idea of a 240-245 lb next gen Alta, not excited at all now.

Damn.

On the other hand, my Ultra Bee should be here Tuesday, so that will be fun to see what that is all about. Sub 200 lbs. Loved my 125's in the woods.

If I love the Ultra Bee (I know I will) it will make it harder to make the Varg purchase.
 
F451 said:
260 lbs!!! Probably closer to 265. I am so bummed.

And yes, you don't feel it once you get going, but you're still hauling 260+ lbs around when you need to stop, loading, unloading, moving around the garage, not to mention on single track.

Will have to take a Varg for a test ride before I commit next fall, but was really excited about the idea of a 240-245 lb next gen Alta, not excited at all now.

Damn.

On the other hand, my Ultra Bee should be here Tuesday, so that will be fun to see what that is all about. Sub 200 lbs. Loved my 125's in the woods.

If I love the Ultra Bee (I know I will) it will make it harder to make the Varg purchase.
Click to expand...

When we put it on the scale it was 118kg, so 260lbs. So pretty much identical to a MXR.
So the weight is a significant miss. However, the battery pack is _much_ better than the original one promised. The difference is much more than the 6.0 to 6.5kwh implies.
 
fsfs said:
When we put it on the scale it was 118kg, so 260lbs. So pretty much identical to a MXR.
So the weight is a significant miss. However, the battery pack is _much_ better than the original one promised. The difference is much more than the 6.0 to 6.5kwh implies.
Click to expand...
It sure would mean a lot to some of us trail riders to get more information on how much range you can get on single track. I'd like to see a single track riding video where I can see the terrain being ridden and how fast it's being ridden. Then I'd like the rider to stop every half hour or hour and show us how much battery is left and how many miles ridden. Then keep riding until the battery is drained or nearly drained. Really, why has a video like this not been done already? @fsfs if you are going to hang your hat on range then we need to see real world video examples of that. Soon would be good.

I agree with others that weight is super important and 260 lbs has me very concerned. But I also need to know more about range. If I can't go do 50 miles of technical single track with my buddies who are riding ICE bikes, then I'll have to give up my deposit and let this electric dream go.
 
window2time said:
It sure would mean a lot to some of us trail riders to get more information on how much range you can get on single track. I'd like to see a single track riding video where I can see the terrain being ridden and how fast it's being ridden. Then I'd like the rider to stop every half hour or hour and show us how much battery is left and how many miles ridden. Then keep riding until the battery is drained or nearly drained. Really, why has a video like this not been done already? @fsfs if you are going to hang your hat on range then we need to see real world video examples of that. Soon would be good.

I agree with others that weight is super important and 260 lbs has me very concerned. But I also need to know more about range. If I can't go do 50 miles of technical single track with my buddies who are riding ICE bikes, then I'll have to give up my deposit and let this electric dream go.
Click to expand...

If the weight is a deal breaker then fine, I can understand that.

However, the new battery pack gives you more range even with the extra 8kg. The 118kg Varg with the new battery pack will go _further_ in every use case than the "advertised 110kg Varg" with the old battery pack.

If you look at a MXR as a reference, the Varg as it is now will go more than 25% further than the MXR because it carries 25% more energy in the battery pack. That is without considering that the Varg's battery pack has a lower equivalent resistance (less energy will be converted to heat inside the battery) and that the inverter/motor combo is somewhat more efficient also. If you are confident that a MXR with 25 to 30% more range would do what you need for single track, then the Varg should work well for you. If not, then oh well. If you consider 118kg too heavy, then oh well also. However, if you are still interested I will go through the math to substantiate what I said above.

Edit: I made a math error. The MXR battery has 75% of the energy of the Varg's battery pack. So based on just energy on board the MXR will go 75% the distance of the Varg. The Varg will go 100/75, or 133% the distance the MXR will go. Now because of lower internal resistance of the battery and inverter/motor combo add an extra few percent to that.
 
fsfs said:
If the weight is a deal breaker then fine, I can understand that.

However, the new battery pack gives you more range even with the extra 8kg. The 118kg Varg with the new battery pack will go _further_ in every use case than the "advertised 110kg Varg" with the old battery pack.

If you look at a MXR as a reference, the Varg as it is now will go more than 25% further than the MXR because it carries 25% more energy in the battery pack. That is without considering that the Varg's battery pack has a lower equivalent resistance (less energy will be converted to heat inside the battery) and that the inverter/motor combo is somewhat more efficient also. If you are confident that a MXR with 25 to 30% more range would do what you need for single track, then the Varg should work well for you. If not, then oh well. If you consider 118kg too heavy, then oh well also. However, if you are still interested I will go through the math to substantiate what I said above.
Click to expand...
I don't know anything about an MXR or its range. Never ridden one. I'm a Stark Varg customer. Any reason why you wouldn't do the video I suggested? If not, then oh well.
 
window2time said:
I don't know anything about an MXR or its range. Never ridden one. I'm a Stark Varg customer. Any reason why you wouldn't do the video I suggested? If not, then oh well.
Click to expand...

Because I don't ride single track. And I am not marketing and am not in a position to organize such a video. I am drive system engineering. What I can do is show you the math compared with an Alta so that someone on this forum who rides an Alta single track can give you a range estimate and then you can adjust that for the Varg.

At Stark the focus is on production ramp up and I seriously doubt they will now spend time on the type of video you want. Right now there is no electric bike that will have better single track range. The bike they are delivering now has better single track range than what they initially advertised. If that is not enough for you and you still have range anxiety then don't buy an electric bike.
 
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Based on math I did over two years ago on the Alta pack, I'd say the Varg will have the equivalent of maybe 1.1-1.2 gallons of fuel as a comparison to gas bikes. That may be enough for some and not enough for others as "your mileage may vary" as the automotive folks like to say. Also, based on the size of tanks needed to compete in AMA pro MX or MXGP events I have to say NO, not gonna make it (at least at Pro level power). You'd need a pack probably 50% bigger yet and even bigger for the really fast guys. Not that most of us will be racing MXGP anytime soon, but Stark did originally promised it'd make a full MXGP race (I assumed with a MXGP level rider on a real MXGP track). Just saying . . . . . . oh well.
 
Mark911 said:
Based on math I did over two years ago on the Alta pack, I'd say the Varg will have the equivalent of maybe 1.1-1.2 gallons of fuel as a comparison to gas bikes. That may be enough for some and not enough for others as "your mileage may vary" as the automotive folks like to say.
Click to expand...
That's somewhat positive news. If your estimate of the Alta "gas tank" was 0.75 gallons, then your Stark's estimate is 1.5x times bigger. That is more optimistic than 1.33x @fsfs estimated. Good news for weekend trail riders.
 
fsfs said:
Because I don't ride single track. And I am not marketing and am not in a position to organize such a video. I am drive system engineering. What I can do is show you the math compared with an Alta so that someone on this forum who rides an Alta single track can give you a range estimate and then you can adjust that for the Varg.

At Stark the focus is on production ramp up and I seriously doubt they will now spend time on the type of video you want. Right now there is no electric bike that will have better single track range. The bike they are delivering now has better single track range than what they initially advertised. If that is not enough for you and you still have range anxiety then don't buy an electric bike.
Click to expand...
Super helpful.
 
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