First Customer Bikes are shipping!


F451

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I didnt comment on it in my video because it was not yet public knowledge. I hope you can understand that. What i did say in my video is how the bike felt out on the track.

After they publicly announced it, i posted this comment in this thread explaining my thoughts: First Customer Bikes are shipping!

I did notice the weight right away when i pulled the very first bike off the stand. I was expecting it to feel lighter than my MXR given the advertised 242 but it didnt. The Varg is a little more rear weight biased than the MXR but it felt very similar to how my MXR feels lifting it off the stand. On the track it felt very light and flickable, just like the MXR. The feeling we all love on our MXRs.

Keep in mind, the Varg is at 260lbs with coil spring KYB forks and a higher capacity battery. Alta MXR is 258lbs with a WP AER48 air fork. Those who put coil spring forks on their MXR are probably heavier than a Varg. The Varg is a massive improvement over the MXR from a performance standpoint even at the new weight spec.

Keep in mind this bike is purpose built for motocross but can be spec'd with parts that make it more offroad friendly (18" rear, kickstand, etc). I cant comment on how much range it will get in someone's particular single track riding scenario because i havent done that type of riding on the bike yet. As we MXR/EXR owners know range varies quite a bit. I Will definitely be making a single track video and do a full range test 100-0% after my bike arrives.

That all said, they told me the new weight spec before i paid in full and i still decided to buy the bike. I like what i rode in Barcelona.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time over Stark's business decisions, just pointing out that Stark had plenty of opportunities to update customers on the weight increase, which is a key spec of the bike.

The fact that they told you not to disclose the weight of the bike just proves what I'm saying. They did not want this information to come out, I suspect because its a negative and might reduce sales, might cause cancellations of orders, might have pre-order customers demanding refunds.

Regarding the performance of the bike with the weight increase, seems like a bunch of folks are trying to convince me/us that the increased weight doesn't affect the bikes performance, so its a non-issue. I disagree completely. A 242 lb dirt bike is going to handle way better then a 260 lb dirt bike in all conditions. I'm not disputing that the 260 lb SV works great on the track, is better then the MXR, what I'm saying is a 242 lb SV, as was promised, would be better.

If people feel the additional 18 lbs is a non-issue, right on, that's cool. I disagree.

Someone else said something about growing more muscles, fitness program, in support of the 18 lbs heavier SV? Ok. Buy a $13k latest technology bike that is 18 lbs over advertised, in effect a porker, and be happy about it because its giving you a workout to ride? Just buy an old XR650R, you'll get a better workout and be $10k ahead, Lol.

Again, my only issue is that they are not delivering what they advertised (not even close), they repeatedly kept that information from customers, and they have a no refund policy for the pre-orders. That is so lame and makes me feel like I can not trust them. Just my opinion, others are entitled to be fine with all that of course.

If they will refund pre-order customers their deposits, its all good. If not, my feeling is they are screwing people over.
 

F451

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This guy races electric against gas bikes on trails regularly.
In the past he has heavily moded bikes like the surron.
I respect his opinions.

Here he reviews two existing electric bikes that are heavier.

The Storm is 126kg
The Ultra is 85kg

He feels the weight difference is insignificant.
Both of those bikes are vastly inferior to the Stark in every category. Feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong.

I plan to grow more muscles. Fitness is a primary reason I ride anyways :)

This guy feels the difference in weight between 126 kg and 85 kg dirt bikes is insignificant?!

Lol. Wow.

I'll stick with reviews from Tucker at ECR (and any other number of reviewers) thanks.
 

Number Six

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This guy feels the difference in weight between 126 kg and 85 kg dirt bikes is insignificant?!

Lol. Wow.
Not all that surprising given the type of terrain illustrated in that video ; pretty high speed with little in the way of technical terrain.

The vid below is fairly typical of average single track here in the mid-west, would be most interested to understand what a 260 pound Alta or Stark Varg would feel like with all the slowing & 'last second' negotiating required for this type terrain ;

 

enjoythesilenc

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I think most of my trailbikes have been in the 250-260# range. 265# Alta does not feel like a pig. Did not feel any difference riding back to back on a sherco 300 2T in flowy trails. I assume that bike was 15-20# lighter. Older KTM 450, husaberg 570 probably not as nimble as heavy Alta. wrf450 yamaha, complete pig. Yz 250 2t was slightly more nimble.

when I rode snyde's mxr, i felt no difference in weight to my mx, which is 5-10# heavier.

I'm not fast but I can usually react to keep momentum. If you stall or get stuck with a heavier bike, you will pay more of a price, especially if its electric. Its like a shark, if it stops swimming, it sinks to the bottom.
 

Mark911

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Weight is like suspension, everyone has their stories and preferences. Unfortunately, I think that's just the beginning of the broken promises. Let's see how the battery pack performs when ridden hard on a HOT day. One of the issues with proving/disproving these promises is getting a rider fast enough to challenge the Stark statements. Most fast guys are not interested in or buy/own electric. The only way I was able to push my Alta was to lend it to a local A/Expert on practice days and turn them loose on the track. Ultimately, within a few laps they would limp in with the little yellow light shining brightly. My bike was the MX, so the MXR would have gone a few laps more, but the result would have been the same.

So, before we know for sure on HOT days;

1) Vargs will need to start being delivered.
2) The owners (unless they are pretty fast themselves like Brian) will need to find a fast guy and a proper MX track (not a demo or backyard type track) and have him/her push it.
3) Charging after a simulated 20 minute moto and maybe a couple hours between a second simulated moto (typical between moto times) would be fair
4) Ride the second simulated moto again at race pace and see what happens.

The ultimate test would be an actual race, but unless it's Vet class, most organizations won't allow it in the paying classes. Maybe as a demo with no cash or points on the line, but that would take some negotiations with the promoters.

Are most of the potential Varg people A/expert/pro class racers? Probably not, so all the above may not matter. But again, it's about claims and promises that Stark has made and whether the hype will prove true or not. And I'm not even considering the 30 minutes plus two laps claim yet.
 

Philip

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Going from 4 to 3 is a big hit, 25% (the problem with using such large cells as it reduces design flexibility). Could the remaining cells support the power requirements/promises? Maybe, but they'd be working 25% harder and that might have tipped the longevity scale in terms of charge/discharge cycles/etc. So, it might not have been range (although that's a great excuse) that prompted the increase in pack size.
Mark, do you think we need 6.5 kWh of batteries to have the power that is equivalent or better than a factory 450cc bike? Can you think of ways to make 4.8 kWh batteries last, like @rayivers was proposing, but without detuning the power output? Is it okay to discharge 2170 or other batteries at over 10C and not kill them quickly?

I hope we are not forever stuck with needing 80 lbs and 6+ kWh of batteries to compete with the 450cc bikes. That would suck for our sport.
 

Mark911

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Frankly, my experience, along with several other Alta owners here in SoCal, is that the Alta MXR is already competitive with the current crop of 450s power and speed wise. At least until you get into the really fast guys. If you are talking making the same power over a longer period (in MX that's moto minutes, others may consider miles the measurement stick), well that's another story.

I really don't know how long the stock battery actually lasts in the hands of an A or above class rider as thermal limiting almost always precedes a low SOC pack, sometimes at 30-50% mark. So, the first task is to deal with the thermal issues. That's why I spent 6 months designing, fabricating and experimenting with a liquid cooled pack. That's also why I know that simply cooling a pack with water (like the motor or Inverter) simply won't work on a hot day as there's simply not enough difference in temperature to pull that much heat out. Remember, an ICE motor runs at 200F or so, that's a 100F difference on a hot day. Li-Ion (depending on who you talk to) doesn't like over 130-140F. I've got data logs to prove it. That's why I went to pre-chilling of the pack. Start at a lower cell temp and you have much more headroom to grow in heat before they hit the limit. It also eliminates the need for radiators, pumps, etc, that only adds weight. On cold days, the water cooling alone works great, however. But why add all that weight when all you need is a water chiller (all shown in several of my posts).

Another important item to consider is how quickly any particular cell can move heat from its core to its case. Li-Ion, at least the cylindrical types, are like jelly rolls, with electrodes, current collectors and isolators in-between. The isolators are great at keeping heat from moving radially to the case, so by far the best path is axially. That's why Alta (and Varg) use the negative ends to transfer heat to their respective heatsinks. Note: The positive ends are also good radiators, but the cell connections make this difficult, although I was able to obtain dual ended heat transfer on several of my personally built packs. BUT EVEN this process (single ended) is extremely inefficient as only a tiny portion of the negative electrode current collector (the good heat conductor) is actually in contact with the bottom of the cylindrical case. It's a thermal choke point. Cells with higher C rating typically use thicker current collectors and more contact area so they can conduct more heat. But something's gotta give as there's now less space for the actual electrodes and chemicals that generate the power. Luckly, chemically the cells are getting slightly better and this often offsets the less space, so it's a net improvement thermal wise and the capacity doesn't suffer (much). The VERY BEST cylindrical cells thermally use an extended negative current collector which "bunch up" at the cell bottom making the contact area orders larger and increases thermal conductivity greatly. There's a special name for these, but I forgot . . . However, that takes space too and the opportunity for shorting (among other issues) is always there. Plus, they are very expensive when you can find them.

So, what's better thermally, 18650 or a larger cell format? I haven't done any simulations, but there's some logical conclusions. Since the larger cells (in dia and length) have longer and/or a more thermally resistive paths, you'd think they'd be worse. On the other hand, by shear mass they may be able to absorb more thermal energy before they reach the limit. But then watch out, as without any assistance the thermal momentum will cause the cell to overshoot and then it's trouble. The BMS and good cell characterization can predict and prevent this, but by that time is the extra thermal capacity worth it? I still like the 18650. It's been proven time after time to be the most efficient and effective size. However. it's more expensive to make a pack and that pack may not be as reliable due to the many more connections. The type and quality of the connections will determine total end to end resistance, but everything equal, less conns are better, advantage larger cells in this case.

Now energy is energy. If you want HP and a reasonable range (reasonable is different for everyone), you'll need a certain amount of it regardless of what cell or fuel you choose. With electric, it's all about converting that potential energy into the good kind of kinetic energy (HP) as opposed to heat. Modern electric motors/controllers are getting pretty darn good, 85-90%. Varg may claim they have an efficiency advantage, but there's not much left to squeeze and no system is 100% efficient.

But to make a long story longer, if I were to try and design an Alta pack for myself (my needs and speed), I'd probably aim for maybe 4.6kwh using 18650s with those "special" type cells I mentioned (if I could find them). I'd still need to do some pre-chilling as just getting the heat to the cells case is only half the battle, you gotta ultimately get the heat to the air somehow, particularly difficult on hot days. So, my case mods would need to be done. I'd figure out a way to isolate the P groups so that a very efficient TIM could be used between the cell and HS and add a simple safety feature to prevent shorting. I'd build the modules using the stock Alta honeycombs but build my own BMS system. Might have to charge through a separate port on the pack and "fake out" the system to think everything was nominal. Possibly a new SOC indicator would be required. With some help I'd figure a weight loss of maybe 10-12 lbs.

Anyway, all theory as it would take far more time and money to do than I'd want to invest!
 

happyinmotion

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Then the first goal should be to stop the battery from heating up - Stark have switched to the Molicell P45B cells, with a third lower DC internal resistance. That's a third less heat into the pack than the P42A cells they were initially using.

Then the next goal is cells that can work at higher temperatures - the P45B datasheet has discharge characteristics unaffected at 60 C.

Only after that do we need to worry about dumping heat.

And it's all irrelevant to the riding that I'm doing - mostly enduro in damp forest. There's enough streams that if the bike overheats I can just immerse it.

Actually, can we put out the rumour that Stark's overheat and need regular cooling? Coz that's going to be my excuse next time I fall over into a stream - "battery was too hot, I needed to apply additional water cooling."
 

enjoythesilenc

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Interesting. Do the 45 cells weigh 18 pounds more than the 42 cells? Do they cost $1000 more? Just trying to figure out when they switched and how it affected the rollout etc.

Also, can trailriders just ditch the cooling system and claw back some lightness?
 

Ethos

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Interesting. Do the 45 cells weigh 18 pounds more than the 42 cells? Do they cost $1000 more? Just trying to figure out when they switched and how it affected the rollout etc.

Also, can trailriders just ditch the cooling system and claw back some lightness?
In my experience trail riding runs my gas bike hotter than mx.

But that might just be me, the trails I run, and how I ride.
 

Philip

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I am definitely keeping my Start Varg order. But the next bike I will want is a Stark Vargito (or Liten Varg, whatever) with 300 of these cells in a 4.8 kWh quick-swappable battery. It should still be able to beat the 450cc bikes.
 

Mark911

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Then the first goal should be to stop the battery from heating up - Stark have switched to the Molicell P45B cells, with a third lower DC internal resistance. That's a third less heat into the pack than the P42A cells they were initially using.

Then the next goal is cells that can work at higher temperatures - the P45B datasheet has discharge characteristics unaffected at 60 C.

Only after that do we need to worry about dumping heat.

And it's all irrelevant to the riding that I'm doing - mostly enduro in damp forest. There's enough streams that if the bike overheats I can just immerse it.

Actually, can we put out the rumour that Stark's overheat and need regular cooling? Coz that's going to be my excuse next time I fall over into a stream - "battery was too hot, I needed to apply additional water cooling."
A Li-Ion cell is much more complicated (electrically) than a simple circuit where one could come to your conclusion that ohmic losses in terms of heat are directly proportional to the resistance. You can review a few reputable cell data sheets with different internal values showing cell current, voltage, and corresponding temperature rise and rates and draw your own conclusions. A few bad connections (relatively higher resistance) somewhere in the HV system will eat that up in short order anyway. In any event, everything being equal, current dominates as it's a non-linier relationship. So, why not go to 600 plus volts? it won't kill you any faster than 350 (well, maybe, lol). A few cars have done it.

It's not the discharge characteristics at what temp that I'd be worried about, it's the temp where permanent damage or capacity change occurs. Max operational temps are important to avoid thermal runaway, although most large manufactures (Sony, LG, Panasonic, etc) tend to be conservative on this value for obvious reasons. I can't speak for other smaller, relatively new, boutique brands as I haven't had experience with them. But some appear to have specs too good to be true without any technical advantage. Buyer beware I guess.
 

happyinmotion

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Going from P42A to P45B, the cell weights are the same so no change there.

The cost, however... I've seen quotes of US$6 for P42A, US$10 for P45B.

Four dollars more for four hundred cells equals ouch. Obviously that's retail and not the price that Stark would pay, but a two-thirds bump on the price of the most expensive part of the bike has got to hurt.
 

rayivers

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The figures I found were 67g (42) and 70g (45), so I guess + 1.2kg / 2.6lbs for the cells alone plus whatever the battery-box increase is, assuming the cell count's the same (probably is, but does anyone know for sure?).

+1 on the 600V, for sure - even 450V would probably be a big improvement. The battery performance of my 5.8kWh 350V Alta is night-and-day better than my 5.7 96V Zero, which felt noticeably weaker at 90% SOC and went down from there.
 

Redbull

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I am certainly an adopter of new ideas and technologies, happily ride all size of bikes, and have had my share of taking huge heavy adventure bikes hundreds of pounds more than a Varg into places only a woods bike should go, however I am now solidly in the frustrated camp about the weight for two main reasons.

1. It negates some of the large selling points to non-early adopter audiences out there that I am trying to get excited about these bikes so I have lots of known skill friends to ride with. Since being able to get a deposit on the Varg two January's ago (while still suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Deposit from my 7-8 year Redshift deposit journey), I have been hard selling the idea of the Varg to two groups of riders:

First is selling to the 125/150cc friends that getting the Varg is going to be like having multiple bikes in one. The problem with that statement is the ability to adjust the power down to 150cc when the weight stays 260 pounds doesn’t make a lot of sense. It was a reach when 20 pounds lighter but now it's too far especially for the 150cc crowd riding 225 pound wet bikes.

The other group of riders are those that would stage in one area, and ride out to another area to play hard, then ride back. Not adventure riding mind you, just get to the good stuff and back. Dial up a 450 out, down to 250/150 to play, dial up a 450 back. Sounds great on paper but as it stands it would be like having a non-injected bike taken to 6000 feet where you have all the weight and none of the power, except now you are at sea level. There are places a 450 is too much power and too much weight but the tendency with 260 pounds in the tight stuff is going to be keeping the power high in order to overcome the weight.

2. The other reason is that there won't be any of the usual tricks we can use to lower the weight. Maybe in SM kit if you want to drop some serious lira.

Just frustrating.
 

enjoythesilenc

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Great points. "how much does it weigh"? is usually the third question from anyone mildly curious about electric feasibility. Usually it is strike three and the whole concept is more easily dismissed in favor of the tried and true.

The weight claim was a big part of the marketing. Remember the cheeky "weighs xxx kg, fully charged"!

Wasnt the first pic that showed a radiator sort of a surprise to followers? Was that added in the evolution raising the weight? What bike configuration was the initial claimed weight actually based on?
 

Ethos

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I really think the obvious solution as many here have pointed out is for Stark to offer an option with a battery with fewer cells and lower weight.

How much would the Varg weigh if the capacity were cut in half or even 1/3?

Give people the option and the issue goes away.
 

happyinmotion

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The 21700 cells are 70 grams each, so 400 is 28 kg. Add to that the casing and other gubbins aside from the cells. You could definitely save 10 kg at a cost of a third of the capacity.

I can definitely see Stark coming out with a set of options for weight vs capacity. I'd love to see a 125-equivalent for younger/smaller riders who don't fit a full-size dirt bike. I'd love to see a version with more range and lights as a road-legal dual sport.

But what I want most of all is for them to concentrate on just delivering the current model coz there's 18,000 of us waiting on that.
 

Bodie_Z

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So, why not go to 600 plus volts? it won't kill you any faster than 350 (well, maybe, lol). A few cars have done it.
Theres a few big tradeoffs for higher voltage systems.

The main benefit is that you have less current for the same power, as you pointed out. Less losses and smaller (cheaper) wires.

The downsides are in the architecture and safety domains. With each extra series group of cells, you need another balancing circuit and voltage monitoring channel. Physically, the PCB will get larger and the cost will increase with additional/more complicated parts. As far as safety goes, with higher voltage, there are also increased requirements for voltage withstand and creepage and clearance. Typically, the insulating materials will need to be thicker and the gaps between HV parts and chassis-referenced parts will need to be larger. Not ideal for a very compact battery. Finally, there are some concerns about the energy stored in the Y-capacitance of the HV lines, but it probably doesnt come into play with the (relatively) low power inverter on the varg.

But you are very correct, you will be equally dead if you manage to become the leakage path for 350V or 600+V ⚡
 

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